Comments on CGGC in an Emerging World: Leaders, Culture and Leadership

lew, i'd say it's a bit presumptuous to say that b...

2008-07-01T14:38:00.000-05:00

lew, i'd say it's a bit presumptuous to say that barnabas was sent to stop what was going on, rather than find out what was up and stop it if it happened to be bad. they had already had report of gentiles being saved from peter. i'd like to give them at least the benefit of the doubt, as well as those who look at the 'emerging' church, hopefully to see what's going on, rather than presume it's bad and try to stop it. i know there are some who do that, and that's sad, but i hope those are fewer than we sometimes think.

also, wasn't the church itself emerging from the beginning? did we not emerge from judaism to follow the messiah? i had always though that 'emerging' label was just to say doing things a little newer, not starting a rebellion against the 'old ways', but being more contextually sensible. that the 'emerging' church was simply changing in time just as any culture changes in time, just like what is 'traditional' now was new and innovative in its day. if we're going deliberately against traditions just because they're old, then aren't we just as bad as those who assume that new things are bad? just a thought, and sorry if it's a little tangential.

Walt, In response to your question about the Spiri...

2008-06-30T15:28:00.000-05:00

Walt, In response to your question about the Spirit of Antioch I would have to say there was a double meaning. First it refers to the Holy Spirit who led that church. Secondly, I believe the church in Antioch was the first emerging church. Barnabas was sent to stop whatever it was that was going on but instead stayed on and called for backup. So it is also the spirit of the emerging church to which I refer.

Bill, by flock-based (which may be an overstatement) I meant that there are some flocks that seem to have a history of attacking shepherds and when the shepherd is no longer able lead the flock another shepherd is sent in. In an Apostle led church wouldn't the Apostle be able to come in (as Paul did) and put a muzzle on the sheep?

Admittedly this is more prevalent in Independent Churches (an oxymoron). However, we have read some posts here from shepherds who have been attacked by sheep.

Concerning my plans for IMPACT it is still a possibility but I have not yet sent in my registration. If I could just walk across the street there would be no question.

Lew,Thanks for the affirmation.Would you break thi...

2008-06-30T07:42:00.000-05:00

Lew,

Thanks for the affirmation.

Would you break this comment down for me:

"Another note--Are we really shepherd-based? It seems to me we are somewhat flock-based."

Thanks.

Will we be seeing you at IMPACT for the Emerging Church discussions?

lew, good call on the flock-based. it's probably ...

2008-06-29T13:12:00.000-05:00

lew, good call on the flock-based. it's probably some mix, but i agree: the point isn't as much of where it is as where it should be, and the fact that those two are different.

question: what do you mean by the "Spirit of Antioch"? do you mean simply Spirit-led, or is there something more to it?

Jesus bless you on your message next week. grace and peace.

One word, Wow.Of course I can't stop with just one...

2008-06-28T20:23:00.000-05:00

One word, Wow.
Of course I can't stop with just one word. One of my first thoughts was maybe we should change the name of this blog to Reemerging CGGC because isn't in part what we hope to see--a reemergence of the Spirit of Antioch. That is one of the things I thought as I read Bill's post.

Another note--Are we really shepherd-based? It seems to me we are somewhat flock-based. Like Samuel we often say, "what means this bleating of the sheep?" then try to figure out how to get them to stop.

Either way we have moved away from the Apostolic model.

I certainly have much to think about as I prepare my message on Eph. 4:10ff for next week. (It was already planned for that date.)

well said, bill. that's something that is also an...

2008-06-27T23:08:00.000-05:00

well said, bill. that's something that is also an easy error, to swing to the other end, and that's the way i tend to err. my language is generally a bit too fiery and a bit too far, which i'm hoping God will temper me in with time. thank you for your correction, and i completely agree. we can't be traditional or innovative for it's own sake, but because the tradition or the innovation are in line with the Spirit and the Word. so indeed, let us pray for God to move in us, and then act as He leads.

walt,To what you said, I would add that all of us ...

2008-06-27T07:32:00.000-05:00

walt,

To what you said, I would add that all of us need to be in prayer and that we all need to be committed to radical obedience to the Word.

It's one thing to say that leading from consensus in a bad thing. It's another thing to walk in the Spirit and lead from that journey.

Certainly, it is a bad thing to minister only doing what the least visionary and faithful among us will tolerate. But, it is no better to take a path that has not been prepared by the Spirit.

Phil,So are you saying that the leadership & that ...

2008-06-27T07:27:00.000-05:00

Phil,

So are you saying that the leadership & that would include most pastors, elders, etc. are not listening to our councilor and teacher the Holy Spirit?.

That's a small part of what I'm saying.

I'm saying that they are so deeply entrenched in a traditional way of being the church that they are ignoring the Bible's teachings about the church. They are carrying out a model of church that is rooted in Middle Ages Catholicism much more than in the teaching of Scripture and the pattern of the early believers recorded in Scripture. I suspect that they don't realize that. I myself didn't for a long time.

And, in holding to a model of the church that is traditional, not biblical, they certainly are disregarding the Spirit, Whom I believe is calling us to live biblically and to, among other things, receive and use the gifts of apostles, prophets and evangelists--as well as the shepherd and teachers that the traditional model forces all called people into.

bill, if i'm getting you right, i'm right with you...

2008-06-26T16:21:00.000-05:00

bill, if i'm getting you right, i'm right with you. having grown up in the cgGc, i've found that often we're stagnated by trying to get consensus on everything and having to convince everyone of something before we can move on it. sometimes we need to just send clarion calls and challenge people.

Jesus met people where they were at, true, but He never left them there, and never hesitated to call them out. i think we, myself included, are often guilty of valuing the opinion of man over the call of God. sometimes we need to just call out and move forward.

this may lose some people, because it's so easy to grow complacent and make "how it's always been done" an idol. but God has promised to bless those who follow Him, and over and over again He multiplies the Body where it is following hard after Him. sometimes, and far more often than we do, the rubber needs to meet the road and just go. may sound a bit harsh, but i feel this is exactly what we need.

BillI do agree we have many gifted leaders. What ...

2008-06-26T15:22:00.000-05:00

Bill
I do agree we have many gifted leaders. What I think I am hearing you say is that our leaders either by design or lack of knowledge or something else are maintenance oriented.

I have always had the opinion that the Holy Spirit knows how to transform any body of believers. I don't believe He needs the next best thing to come along, though He may use it.

So are you saying that the leadership & that would include most pastors, elders, etc. are not listening to our councilor and teacher the Holy Spirit. Or possibly their agenda carries more importance to them than God's.

I'm not trying to be critical I'm just trying to clarify in my mind what you are saying.