Are we dead yet?
What happened? Did I offend everyone? Why so quiet?
Well, then I will ramble...
I finished "Velvet Elvis" by Rob Bell yesterday. I really liked it. He writes just like he talks on the Nooma films.
Something that fits into this "emerging conversation," he says on p.120: "I'm learning that a lot of peple give up. They settle. And they miss out. Anybody can quit. That's easy. I'm learning that very few people actually live from their heart. Very few live connected with their soul. And those few who do the difficult work, who stare their junk in the face, who get counsel, who let Jesus into all the rooms in their soul that no one ever goes in, they make a difference. They are so differnt; they're coming from such a different place that their voices inevitably get heard above the others. They are pursuing wholeness and shalom, and it's contagious. They inspire me to keep going."
Sing it sister! (or preach it brother).
Another thing I liked was how he knew it was time to plant a church: "When I no longer cared if it was successful or not." Hmm.... I wonder if he would have passed an assessment?
He also says on p.99, "The thought of the word 'church' and the word 'marketing' in the same sentence makes me sick." He says on the previous page, "what a church should be like: strip everything away and get down to the most basic elements. A group of people desperate to experience God."
I think I'm going to resign and move to grand rapids so I can go to his church.
For now though, I'm back to reading Donald Millers' "Searching For God Knows What." another really good read.
later.
posted by dan at 9:53 AM
10 Comments:
Another thing I liked was how he knew it was time to plant a church: "When I no longer cared if it was successful or not." Hmm.... I wonder if he would have passed an assessment?
He would have passed our assessment. The thing you need to know if you plant a church is that money may be a struggle. We (not me in particular, but our region) are planting a church in inner city Muncie, Indiana. They need to know that even if they are "successful" (200+ in worship -- note I put successful in quotes because that is not my definition) that doesn't mean he will bring in enough offering to get paid a reasonable salary. So they are doing a lot of things in an alternative fashion.
As a church planting commission, we get a lot of guys who say they just want depth, don't care about numbers, but the number they still do care about is their salary. If you want to be truly successful in God's Kingdom, you really have to not care about salary and be willing to be creative about finances.
I know you are just kidding about resigning (maybe), but the thing to remember is your life will be about the same anywhere you go. So live it out in Fairview. Or plant a church. We are looking for a planter in Vincennes, IN, Terre Haute, IN, and several Chicago suburbs, or convince us of another place.
The only thing stopping anyone from living out the life is a concern for what other people think. I have to admit: I care a lot more about what people think than I thought I did 10 years ago.
I agree Brent, "Rain" is very moving. It's the only nooma video I have used to date in our Sunday worship -- and, yes, it got a powerful response. We took communion afterwards and people were crying, and hugging, and laughing. It had quite an impact (not just emotionally). I've only seen a few others, but plan to use more from time to time on Sunday am.
Brian... Yes, I was only kidding about resigning. I LOVE the church I am a part of. I consider it a privilege to be invited into the journey with them. But I hope we can meander similar to Bell's church.
And... regarding the church planting assessment... I wasn't trying to slam our process. I don't even know what it is. I guess it does sound like that now that I look at it. Sorry. To me, I think the greatest assessment is when Jesus asks Peter if he loves him (three times). It's always seemed to me that if you could find a way to measure PASSION... that would be the biggest key to whether a plant would work. I like what Donald Miller says in Blue Like Jazz:
"I never liked jazz music because jazz music doesn't resolve. But I was outside the Bagdad Theater in Portland one night when I saw a man playing the saxophone. I stood there for fifteen minutes, and he never opened his eyes. After that I liked jazz music. Sometimes you have to watch somebody love something before you can love it yourself. It is as if they are showing you the way. I used to not like God because God didn't resolve. But that was before any of this happened." (the intro to the book)
I'm not claiming to know how to assess church planters. Don't care. I want to know Jesus... with a passion. That's more what I was trying to say (I think).
Hey... thanks for posting guys!!!
Hi guys & gals, if there are any blogging.
I just wanted to join up with you and see what was happening on the blog. I was interested in knowing if it was possible for a friend of mine to join in, if he is even interestedat all. He runs an emerging church here in Toledo. He was the College Pastor for Ceder Creek a few years ago and he has spent some time with Rob Bell.hHe has great insight on the emerging church. (maybe because he is in one, I don't know)
It doesn't matter to me one way or another just wanted to throw that out there if you want some first hand experience.
Rain is excellent. I've used it as well as Sunday, Lump, Noise, and Dust.
All very good, although his book has lot more to say about who he is and where he is coming from. A couple of things he says in his book are that there are lots of forgiven people in hell, and he talks about binding and loosing of the scripture. Some of this I am still digesting.
forgot my password...
rob smith
Rob R, sure the more the merrier.
Rob Smith -- do you have those videos? Can I borrow them?
They belong to our church, I am sure that is not a problem. I am using them to lead a small group right now. Let me know how we can get connected.
robsmith
still forgotten password...forgot where I put paper...forgot why I did not choose normal password I use for other stuff...
Just for kicks... what makes a church plant successful?
I never even made it to the assessment stage (a failure before I could even fail).
Do you need to have 200+? 4,000 like Rob Bell? Is there a definition for success? Just asking? And for that matter, what makes a church successful?
Here's my thinking about a successful church. It honors the vision given to it by God. It fights against being self-centered. If it disappeared, the community would feel the impact.
As far as numbers, this is my personal bias, I'm not concerned about how big, but under 50 starts to feel more like a small group than a church. We hovered just over 50 for a few years. Now we are pushing 100 pretty hard.
It really depends on where you are, what God has called you to do, and what your gifts are.
With a few exceptions, larger churches (300+) are very homogenized. Everyone is the same color, similar class, similar demographic all around. I don't want to be homogenized. We value diversity though in our small town, diversity isn't easy to find.
I think it was McManus who defined wholeness as simply "giving more than you take."
Numbers are so hard to figure.
I took my 17-year-old son to Willowcreek, and one of the first things he said was, "Gee, there are so many people, but they all look alike."
I used to think there needed to be a certain number (meaning more) to be effective. Recently I tended to think smaller was better. But there does need to be a certain "critical mass" doesn't there? I agree, Brian, too small can be too small.
I like the statement: "If it disappeared the community would feel the impact." Maybe we can't know if a church is successful until it's gone. Like, success has nothing to do with what you're doing while you're doing it. It's only something that can be measured at the END.
hmmf.
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