Mike's Five Questions
One of the hallmarks of postmodern thinking is that it values well formed questions. In a recent post, Mike raised some good questions. I’m not afraid of any question. And, I believe that being willing to consider and discuss cutting edge questions, can strengthen and deepen my faith. I'd guess that my answers'll be different than Mike's in at least some cases. So, I thought that we might discuss Mike’s questions. There are five of them. Here they are:
- Does salvation always have to happen through a singular moment of conversion? Is it possible that some people come to Christ through a gradual process of realization?
- What if salvation is less about believing the right doctrines and more about the transformation of individuals and the whole world according to the reality of the kingdom of God?
- Is it possible that words like "literal", "inerrant", and "authoritative" are actually inadequate to the complexity and nuance of the biblical texts, and that such ideas, when simplistically applied, actually do an injustice to the Bible and can cause us to radically misunderstand it?
- What if the only "absolute" moral commands are to "Love God and Love Others", and what if every other moral principle is "relative" to those two basic principles?
- What if God's Truth and Goodness can be found not just within the walls of the Christian sub-culture, but actually out in the whole world, and thus we can engage with culture expectantly, hoping to find God there too?
Take a shot at one or all of them. What do you think?
posted by bill Sloat at 8:46 AM
11 Comments:
Does salvation always have to happen through a singular moment of conversion? Is it possible that some people come to Christ through a gradual process of realization?
I believe it can be a moment or a process but there is a point in time when the person knows they have converted. The real trick to this question is that it doesn't really matter as it is up to God and his justice, mercy and grace that will make the final decision on their salvation.
Trying to finish my thoughts but running out of time here at work on lunch, so maybe I will get back to this later.
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I see you left out my sixth question... :)
Thanks for commenting during your lunch break Matt. :) I have indeed often known people who will say something like "I don't know quite when it happened, I just know that when I started coming here (to church or youth group) I wasn't a Christian, and now (6 months, 12 months, 2 years later) I am. I realized one day that I do believe, and that I had been believing for a while now."
This was a common testimony for several of the kids in my former youth group.
Repentance is a necessary part of our salvation. I believe there must be a point in time that the Spirit brings conviction of our sin, and a person must both acknowlege and repent of his/her sin to then accept Jesus Christ's atonement for that sin. Would you agree?
As I understand it, the word for "repentance" in Greek is metanoia which literally means to "turn around" or "turn back" and more specifically, to "change one's mind". That to me seems like it could just as easily be an ongoing process as it is a momentary one. Changing one's mind about something is often a long and difficult process. So too is choosing to turn one's life in another direction. Following the way of Christ is not something that I choose once and then am done with. It's something that I choose everyday, over and over again.
Though I should clarify that I don't think my repeated attempts at repentance affects God's forgivness and acceptance of me. That was accomplished literally once and for all at Calvary some 2000 years ago. My ongoing repentance then is my attempt to continually "work out my salvation with fear and trembling".
Mike, I'm sorry about your previous work experience. If it is any help I can tell you, you are not alone. I worked in a fundamentalist context for many years and I am still trying to figure out when the "fun" is going to begin.
I will not share all the gory details on this blog but my reference to former colleagues (in an earlier blog) indicates my views are not received warmly in some circles.
I appreciate your 6 questions. My Modern brain wants to give anwers to all of them. My postmodern brain wants to ask some more questions.
*When we want to use words other than inerrant, infallible etc. do we mean the Bible is less than that or much more than that?
*When we suspect that God is revealed outside the Christian subculture (Thank God) does he speak as authoritatively as He does in the Bible?
*Can we maintain a balance between grace and truth and still have friends in both camps?
Keep asking questions.
Salvation for me was a process. I believed in Jesus when Zola Wolfe told me He was God when I was 4 years old. I wouldn't call that repentance.
I can't say I've ever wavered in that belief. It has deepened. I've been sorrowful for my fallen state, and continue to be sorrowful for my fallen state. There was not one point for me, though there have been several distinct points that have been significant in my journey.
George, I agree with everything you said. My problem is experiential. When did I personally receive the Holy Spirit? Did I receive the Holy Spirit at 4 years old? Perhaps I did. There were other "spiritual moments" in my life, but I wouldn't point to one of those as "THE moment."
But again, as a basis of understanding, I agree with you.
I think we all need to admit that both process and point in time conversaions happens. I have heard testimonies for both and personally have no right to deny either.
--What if salvation is less about believing the right doctrines and more about the transformation of individuals and the whole world according to the reality of the kingdom of God?---
Okay, I'll bite. Two verses immediately come to mind: James 2:14-18 and Matthew 7:20-23(mainly because I just used them somewhere else). First, I'm leary of the magic formula I hear so often "pray the prayer, get my ticket to heaven." It seems to me that it simply is another variation on the fall- it looks good, I'll take that.
The key to the question however, is the word "believe." It's fine to really, actually believe something - to live as though it is true - and thus, fine to "believe" the right doctrines. But I'm betting, Mike, your question was more along the lines of "intellectual understand and not put into practice."
I think the problem isn't the doctrines or the belief, it's us. Whether we chose to live as though the doctrines truly express reality, or we choose not to - and delude ourselves into thinking everything is okay.
I don't think doctrine is even a problem. Codification of complex belief systems makes for easier learning and helps structure understanding. But, we're the ones organizing that information and so I hold a grain of doubt that a) we've done it correctly b) there isn't something even bigger than we can grasp about it.
Therefore, it seems to mean, that doctrine lived produces "the transformation of individuals and the whole world according to the reality of the kingdom of God."
Why am I up this late?? I have to function tomorrow! {panic}
Guys and gals, it just goes to show what a fun bunch of thinkers you are!
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