Saturday, November 18, 2006

The Mark Driscoll Controversy

I suspect that at least a few of you are aware of all the controversy that has been surrounding Mark Driscoll in the blogophere this past week or so. For those who are completely out of the loop, Mark is a pastor of mega-church in Seattle called Mars Hill (not associated with the Mars Hill in Michigan that Rob Bell teaches at). He is often known as "the cussing pastor" and has often been cited as a cutting edge, "emerging" church leader, despite the fact that Mark is basically a fundamentalist in his theology and has completely disowned the "emergent" label and burned bridges with his former emerging friends. I think he gets labeled this because they do "cool" worship services (i.e. rock music and multi-media) and have a lot of punks and goths and the like that go to their church.. and because he cusses a lot.

Anyway, it all started when Mark posted a response to the Ted Haggard scandal that basically blamed pastoral infidelities on pastor's wives who let themselves get fat and don't give their husbands enough sex. He also suggested that to solve the problem pastors should stop ministering to flirtatious women, and should only surround themselves with male assistants. (Apparently he missed the part where Haggard was caught with a male prostitute. One also wonders how Jesus' encounter with the sinful woman would have played out differently if he had taken Mark's advice.)

While Mark had a few good points in his post, overall, his tone of insensitivity towards women understandably went over like a lead balloon among a lot of readers. The best response and subsequent discussion of the issue can be found at the Conversation at the Edge blog hosted by Off the Map (whose Revolution Conference I was just at in Seattle this past week). People were not just upset at Mark's comments, but especially at his overall tone of condescension towards women.

This is a habitual problem with Mark. He is obviously a "complementarian" when it comes to gender roles (not just in the church but also in marriage and society), as are many other conservative Christians. However, the attitude with which he expresses his view falls far short of what one might call well-reasoned arguments. He is rude, mocking, and dismissive of anyone who disagrees with him, regularly referring to them as "chickified dudes with limp wrists and minors in 'womyn’s studies'", comparing the new Episcopal USA bishop to a "fluffy baby bunny", and generally using the term "feminine" as if it were an insult. Stories of Driscoll's spiritual abuse of women in his congregation have been told all over the blogsphere (read one such story here); and my friends in Seattle tell me this is very common over at Mars Hill. Driscoll seems to have an obsession with sexual issues and gender roles, weaving at least one of those two topics into nearly every sermon he preaches (again according to first hand accounts from my Seattle friends).

This Haggard-related post by Driscoll appears to have just been the last straw for some people. In fact, some people in Seattle have decided that enough is enough, and have organized a protest of Mark set for December 3. Their goal is to undermine Mark's growing influence both in Seattle (he has a regular column as a Christian pastor in the Seattle Times) and in the Christian world (as an author, conference speaker, and church planting trainer).

Some others, while concerned about Mark's destructive rhetoric, are not entirely convinced that a protest is the most loving or effective means for bringing positive change. Rose Swetman, for instance, (who happens to be the wife of my church planting coach) has written an open letter to Driscoll and posted it at several prominent blogs around the internet. Personally, while I am sympathetic to the protestors and hope that they can have some impact on Mark's influence there in Seattle, I think I probably prefer Rose's approach. Her letter was gracious, loving, and well-reasoned.

Driscoll has in fact taken notice of the storm he kicked up. Just the other day he finally wrote a response to his critics. While he stopped short of apologizing for his rudeness (his response was more of a clarification than an apology), his tone was far more gracious. If he had written this way in the first place I think more people would have been willing to listen to him. However, as many people have pointed out, clarifying one bad post doesn't make up for an ongoing history of sexist, chauvinist, spiritually abusive behavior towards women. IMHO, Mark still has a long way to go.

What I can't fathom though is why anyone (outside of the extreme Reformed and complementarian circles that Mark tends to move in these days) is still listening to this guy. He may occasionally have a few good things to say about being "relevant" or "missional", but there are plenty of other good authors to read on these subjects as well. Why do we need to keep paying attention to such a blatant sexist? Would we hold a blatantly racist pastor in such high regard?

Frankly I hope that if enough negative attention comes Driscoll's way, eventually he'll stop getting book deals, invitations to speak, media attention, people coming to his church, etc. There are just some Christian leaders who don't deserve the power influence they have been given, and IMHO Mark is one of them. I fear for the Christian church if Mark's brand of Christianity becomes the "hip", new model to follow for years to come.

And let me say this, even if one agree with Driscoll's stances on women, I'd like to remind us all that there's a difference between being right and being kind. And while both are certainly important, (to quote something Brian McLaren said at the Revolution Conference): "Being kind may not be more important than being right, but if you aren't kind, you aren't right." (Which to me is simply a paraphrase of 1 Corinthians 13:2.) If you agree with Driscoll's views, then I hope you would be among the first to stand up to him and say, "Please, for the sake of all of us, be quiet. You are representing us poorly and giving our views a bad name."

44 Comments:

Blogger Shawna said...

Hey Mike,

I have heard of Mark Driscoll, but have never read him before, so thank you for the links so I could be more informed. I did read several of them.

While I'm not a trained professional, I did have some observations that I would like to share.

Observation 1
Mark is reaching a group of people I completely don't "get". I would assume this is why he uses some ways that I might not appreciate.

Observation 2
Mark says what he thinks. Without getting into the position he holds on theology or doctrine, he obviously is a very outspoken, impulsive man much like I would probably categorize the disciple Peter. His heart is for his Lord, but his passion sometimes gets in the way.

Observation 3
While I'm not sure I agree with how he goes about it, I do agree with a lot of the heart of what he is saying. (Again this is based on the few articles you have linked to, not having read any books etc)

For instance, one of the particular bullet points you personally have an issue with was the one about pastors' wives "letting themselves go". Mark did state that the wife is "not responsible for her husband's sin, but she may not be helping him either."

Mark was not saying that ALL wives were doing this, but simply said some. Which honestly, I know of a few Christian wives who would rather NOT be having sexual relations with their husband. So much so that they will pretend that they are having their monthly cycle so that they won't have to.

I am trying to be careful here and not be crass, but to help explain my point with my own experience.

And honestly it doesn't take much more than looking around to notice that there are many Christian women who don't take care of themselves. I adore my husband, but I don't particularly feel amorous towards him when he hasn't showered or brushed his teeth in a couple of days. I think being human, we can all agree that personal hygiene is important. And we have to admit that men are "visual" creatures. So of course a man is going to enjoy his wife dressing up for him and looking nice. Not that it is mandatory, but out of love and respect of her husband, I do believe a wife should try to look nice. Not that a woman can't have her days with no make-up, baggy sweatpants etc, but in general to try to look nice.

But I will agree with the statement that a woman "letting herself go" is not helping her husband stay pure. She's not at fault, but she's not doing everything she can.

As a woman, I didn't take offense to any of Mark's comments. I think he was genuinely cautioning young male Christian leaders to be very wise and discerning when it comes to females in their congregation. My guess is that in Seattle it is a different "culture" that is highly engaged in the sexual revolution and this is why Mark is so cautious. By a couple of his shared experiences, one can see that he has been tested.

What I was more concerned with in these links is the Conversation at the Edge article seemed to be poking fun at Mark for being "weak" in the area of sexual temptation. Obviously Mark is very aware that this is an area where he has great temptation to fall short--wisely he is making choices to make sure he doesn't. Why would any other Christian leader poke fun? I agree with the statement that being kind is not more important than being right, but if you're not kind you're not right. I just think it needs to be applied to both sides of the argument here.

11/19/2006 6:25 AM  
Blogger Mike Clawson said...

Shawna,

Thanks for your perspectives. You raise some good points about Mark's original article, though I would remind us that the bigger issue is a consistent pattern of sexist attitudes on Mark's part, and a consistently rude and abusive means of communicating these attitudes.

For some perspectives on how other women have reacted to Mark's words, check out the comments here, here, and the comments at the CatE site (whenever they get those working again).

And for an example of how Mark's attitudes often serve to encourage sexist behavior among other impressionable young men, check out the first few comments on this thread at theOoze. It contains such rhetorical gems as "hairy arm-pitted feminists" and "whiny li'l bitches".

Peace,

-Mike

11/19/2006 9:40 AM  
Blogger Mike Clawson said...

One thing I should also add... non-Christians are watching us with this controversy, both with Haggard and with Driscoll. The Conversation at the Edge blog is specifically for dialogue between Christians, atheists and agnostics, and a lot of the atheists connected with it are following the controversy and blogging about it at their own sites. They are watching to see whether the Christian world will continue to wink at injustice or if we will finally call out one of our own before they do. They want to know if we can deal with extremists like Driscoll in a way that reflects both justice and love.

And what is most interesting to me is that in some of the posts where people begin to share the abuse they suffered while at Mars Hill, it is the atheists who have extended the most healing love towards these people, while some of the Christians at the site have gone so far as to accuse these wounded people of making up stories just to discredit Mark. I admire and respect my atheist friends for this, but on the other hand, I think it's a crying shame that they have to do our job for us.

At any rate, all that to say, as we look at the way pastors like Driscoll act, and the ways others of us respond to him, let's be aware that the world is watching.

11/19/2006 5:01 PM  
Blogger Mike Clawson said...

Here's a couple other secular and mainstream blogs that have also noticed Driscoll's comments.

Oh, and EmergingGrace has some really good responses on Mark's original comments, IMO.

11/19/2006 5:45 PM  
Blogger Shawna said...

Hey Mike,

Thanks for the other links. Unfortunately as I am "HTML" challenged, I cannot post a link.:) But today I read on Mark Driscoll's blog a very good article in which he addresses his critics. It's entitled Thank You, Critics and it's at theresurgence.com (Mike--your help in getting the link up would be much appreciated)

Anyway, I did read the links you provided. And was surprised. With the exception of Emerging Grace, the other links I found to have just as much "hate" filled words as those who you pointed out that supported Mark's comments. I felt Emerging Grace did a very good job of expressing their opinions without being outright rude.

I still stand by my initial observations. Mark is very passionate and he doesn't think everything through before he speaks. I think his recent post reflects a genuine repentance for the hurt caused. And I think the fact that on more than one occasion he has been willing to openly admit when he misspoke and to apologize for the hurt caused should give him more credence. He can admit when he is wrong. That's good--he learns. He's being humbled. It's a process.

I hope that those on the other side can be equally gracious with their forgiveness and willingness to come alongside Mark and help him to see how is words are affecting others.

What I'm hearing from you personally Mike and from the links you have provided is that instead of restoring and forgiving, you would rather get rid of him.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

11/20/2006 9:25 AM  
Blogger gerbmom said...

Hey Shawna,
I know I'm not Mike, and I really don't know if "getting rid" of Driscoll is Mike's intent, but what I observe is this: Mark Driscoll seems to always speak his mind in a rude and confrontational way, and then, when confronted, apologize. As if the apology will make everything better. It's like the child who knows what he is doing is wrong, but feigns ignorance, and then becomes most apologetic to lessen the consequences of his action. I could be wrong, and I do appreciate Driscoll's apology. I just think there is a better way of going about getting his point across. Just my opinion.

11/20/2006 10:44 AM  
Blogger Shawna said...

Gerbmom,

Thanks for your response. Welcome to the conversation!

I think I hear what you are saying--the apologies are wearing thin, you want to see some action behind the repentance. Let me know if this is incorrect.

I agree Mark does a poor job of communicating his thoughts in a nonoffensive way. There seems to be "no filter" for him. But I still think he's in the process. On the most recent post on his blog he mentioned that before when he had responded to accusations he had done so in a defensive tone. This time he took some time and tried to be careful. So there is some progress.

Again, I'm not knowledgeable in all that Mark has said or how he has hurt others. And I know that makes a difference because we're all human and once we're hurt repeatedly by someone it makes it very difficult to not be quick to judge what they are saying or to forgive. We have those doubts in our head.

The question then is--How many times are we to forgive? I think Matthew 18:21 gives us the answer. Those who have taken a "literal" stance on the bible have 76 more times to go. (teasing!) :)

As Christians we were told that people will know we are Christ's follower's by our love for one another. Obviously Mark is not showing "love" to his fellow Christians, but the rest of us must be careful not to follow suit towards him. We need to choose our words carefully as well. Which is not happening on many of the links that I read. (Again with the exception of Emerging Grace & also Rose's response was well said)

11/20/2006 11:20 AM  
Blogger Shawna said...

I just want to note that I stand corrected on Mike's opinion of Mark and his ministry. Mike's latest blog entry clearly shows that he disagrees with Mark, but also does a great job of reminding everyone that the world is watching us (as in Christians) and our response. My apologies for missing a couple of key statements in this comment thread as well. Thanks Mike for your patience with me :)

11/20/2006 11:37 AM  
Blogger vieuxloup said...

The Driscoll comments and the Haggard problems serve as a good reminder that we all need somebody close enough to us who can look us in the eye and tell us we are full of bull. In love, of course.

Or maybe another way to say it is that we should never assume that when our dog wags its tail it is a sign of public opinion.

11/20/2006 12:11 PM  
Blogger Mike Clawson said...

Hey Shawna,

I'm totally with you on being loving and forgiving towards Mark. However, I don't think being loving and forgiving necessarily precludes being able to stand up and tell someone that their words are hurtful and they need to stop.

The reality is that Driscoll has no problem speaking out harshly and mockingly whenever he disagrees with someone (as with McLaren & Pagitt in the first article I linked, or with Jefferts-Schori in his more recent post on the Episcopal bishop). What I see happening here is that finally people are starting to kick back a little bit and say to him "Dude, this is not acceptable. Knock it off." I certainly won't try to defend the tone of every Driscoll critic that has posted in the past few days (I linked to them just so you all could get caught up on the conversation that has already taken place, not because I necessarily endorse everything that's been said), but at the same time, I don't think we should be so critical of those who are willing to finally stand up to a bully and accuse them of being the hateful, arrogant ones.

"I think his recent post reflects a genuine repentance for the hurt caused. And I think the fact that on more than one occasion he has been willing to openly admit when he misspoke and to apologize for the hurt caused should give him more credence. He can admit when he is wrong."

That would be great if it were true. Unfortunately Mark never did actually apologize in that most recent response, not for his words or his tone. Go back and re-read it. No where does he say "I was wrong" or "What I said was hurtful" or even "I'm sorry".

What he does is clarify. He says:

"Sadly, my intent has been widely misunderstood and/or misrepresented. Therefore, it seemed prudent that I provide some context and clarification."

and

"As I have re-read my blog, I can see how some may have misconstrued what I said. Because I was writing to male pastors, I spoke in such a way that was not as clear as it could have been regarding what is true of Christian marriage in general. Therefore, I hope that this post is more clarifying."

And he thanks his critics, not for correcting him, not for helping to see how his words were hurtful, but for "helping me to learn how to more clearly articulate what I am trying to communicate".

Unfortunately this is not repentance. In fact, this is a textbook case of what psychologists call "blame-shifting". Basically he is faulting all of his critics for misunderstanding what he was really trying to say. In other words, it's our fault we got so bent out of shape.

I'm not trying to be hyper-critical here, I just want us to see Mark's response for what it is. Let's not give him more credit than he deserves. I definitely did appreciate his new tone. I wish he would have written that way in the first place. But he still has a long way to go.

Shawna, you asked:
"What I'm hearing from you personally Mike and from the links you have provided is that instead of restoring and forgiving, you would rather get rid of him."

I don't think it's possible to "get rid of him". He pastors a church of 5000 people. Unless he gets caught with a male prostitute, I don't think he's going anywhere soon.

However, truthfully, I absolutely would like to see his power and influence diminished. I think that his theology is destructive, damaging to others, and fails to reflect the biblical commands of justice and love. I think that his tone and attitude poorly represents Christianity in the public sphere, and I am also concerned about being lumped in together with him by those who still think of him as part of the "emerging church".

And most importantly, I fear the influence that he is having over a very large number of eager, passionate, and impressionable young men through his Acts29 church planting network. I have had several run-ins with Acts29 pastors , and almost to a man they reflect the same alpha-male agressiveness and arrogance that Mark does. He is attracting those types of guys, and rather than teaching them wisdom, humility and compassion, he affirms them in their macho, aggressive, in-your-face approach to faith. He seems to think that this is the ideal future of the church (as in that video clip I linked to in my original post). Personally, I think this has been the tragic past of the church and it's time for us to move past that style of leadership. The world and the church has been ruled by alpha-males for thousands of years, and look at what a great job we've done with it. I'm all for something different.

I do forgive Mark (though it's not really my place to forgive, as the offense was not primarily against me), and I'd love to see restoration. However, Mark has to want that too. Right now I doubt he thinks he's done anything needing forgiveness, or desires any restoration of relationship with his critics. He cut us off in the first place. ("us" meaning the people in Emergent that he used to consider friends but has since rejected and publically ridiculed and named as enemies; as well as other people from his past that he cut ties with once he found they disagreed with his views on women).

But again Shawna, thank you for reminding me and all of us to temper our criticisms with love.

Peace,

-Mike

11/20/2006 1:52 PM  
Blogger Brian said...

What doesn't seem to be addressed here is the weakness of men in sexual areas. Driscoll was trying to address it. He was admitting weakness.

Most men I know struggle with sexual temptation of some kind. Haggard felt compelled to hide it. Most male pastors do. Let me say clearly, it is not the fault of their wives. I know many men who have beautiful wives and satisfying relationships with them, who still struggle. Sometimes when women haven't taken care of themselves, men place some blame on them, but it is misplaced.

We (men) struggle with Transformation versus Sin Management. Like Haggard, we think the darkness is gone, only to have it come roaring back. This is true of much sin. We begin to doubt our faithfulness to God. Haggard said he was a liar. So are we all to some extent.

Driscoll (poorly stated as they were) listed some sin management tips that weren't terrible tips. While I honestly don't think I would ever cheat on my wife, I am very careful about meeting with women by myself and careful about my travel arrangements.

I am a strong proponent of women fulfilling who they are created to be, but women are created differently. There are several wonderfully strong women in our church -- Teresa, Shawna, Michelle, Terri, Lisa, and my wife -- to name the first ones to come to my mind. They all play leadership roles in our church. They can all hold their own in any situation a man could. But they are all women at the same time, and all choose to be "girlish" at times. And most of them (I won't speak for them all) want a strong man in their lives who brings leadership to their family.

My wife and I have found with a careful balance, which teeters at best, we can encourage each other enough that we both mostly feel capable, strong, and even attractive. I might even go as far to say that she submitted to my plan for her to be who God created her to be, a high school math teacher, while I submitted to the role of caring for our youngest child. It was not without sacrifice.

Men and women are very different and that has to be recognized. Jokes about Driscoll's own weakness (if he has one) are serious mistakes. As men continue to hide their struggles, the darkness only gains more hold. I'm not suggesting pastors confess from the pulpit, but they must find people they trust to at least share the truth about themselves, and they must set up protection for themselves and for their marriages. I am suggesting that women do not understand this struggle and could find ways to be helpful to their husbands.

On the other hand, my wife and I, and many in our congregation have found the book "His Needs/Her Needs" by Willard Harley to be a life saving book. It shows a complementarian (perhaps I'm using this word incorrectly) view of men and women (though not speaking of leadership roles) and has been very helpful in helping men and women understand the needs of their spouse. Whenever I use this book, it always seems a bit shallow but at the same time, one of the most effective tools.

11/20/2006 4:48 PM  
Blogger dan said...

I have to admit, I have not spoken up about this post because I really don’t want to offend anyone. I respect the opinions of those on this blog, and I hope no one will take mine personally.

I can certainly sympathize with people who have been offended by some of Mark’s comments in the past. I do not agree with his stance on women in ministry, nor his choice of words or methods from time to time (thought there is much I do admire him for). However, I think it is unfair to take one part of one point in his post on the Ted Haggard situation and state that he “basically blamed pastoral infidelities on pastor's wives who let themselves get fat and don't give their husbands enough sex.” You have to admit, Mike, that is NOT what that post was about.

I know Mark has a history, but I also believe God has a history of using screw-ups and misfits to carry out his will. That is certainly my only hope. Some of what has been written about Mark seems pretty vengeful to me (not so much here, but in other places). Perhaps Gamaliel had it right in handling the Apostles in Acts 5.

I also have to admit, I have had the misfortune of dealing with some of the same issues Driscoll has (not on his scale), and it’s not easy. That doesn’t excuse sinful behavior on anyone’s part, but the truth is… I think there is some sin in some people’s lives (or maybe everyone’s) and nobody likes to have it pointed out. (I could say there’s an elephant in the room, but the metaphor might be mistaken for the wrong thing). :) At any rate, I appreciated Brian’s comment. I think he’s got the right idea.

Also… here’s the link to Mark’s follow-up post:Thank You, Critics.

peace & grace,

dan h.

11/21/2006 10:37 AM  
Blogger Mike Clawson said...

Thanks Dan,

I hope everyone will notice that I did say in my original post that "Mark had a few good points in his post". I chose not to focus on those points however, because I was trying to bring you all up to speed on the controversy, which has centered on those few comments where Mark "basically blamed pastoral infidelities on pastor's wives who let themselves get fat and don't give their husbands enough sex." You're right, that's not what the whole post was about, but it was part of it, he did say those things, and it was that part that got people angry.

In other words, I didn't reflect on the good things Mark may have said because that wasn't the point of my post. I was writing about the controversy, not about the rest of his advice to pastors. Might I suggest that if you guys want to talk about that stuff, it might be worthy of it's own post?

Personally, I agree that the topic of healthy sexual relations among pastoral couples is a good thing to talk about, as is discussing what pastors can do to avoid sexual temptation. Though IMHO most of Mark's suggestions are ridiculously impractical (especially if one doesn't pastor a mega-church) and do more to reveal Mark's own particular struggles than they do to establish realistic standards for most pastors.

Anyhow, as I said, these are good things to talk about, but not in this way (i.e. with Mark's implicit fear of women coloring the whole post), and most especially not in this context (i.e. in reference to the Ted Haggard scandal). In case Mark missed it, Ted was tempted by men. It wouldn't have mattered how hot his wife was, or how carefully he avoided "flirtatious women", he still would have fallen. (In fact, some of Mark's suggestions would have probably made things worse in Ted's case.)

I agree that some of the rhetoric against Mark has been unnecessarily harsh lately, though on the other hand, I wonder how long we continue to wink at injustice and let people like him give the rest of us a bad name in the world. Certainly God can use anyone, but does that make passivity in the face of abuse and injustice excusable? What are our responsibilities to those who have been hurt by Mark? Do we care as much about the victims as we do for the perpetrator? Do we continue to let him have such a huge influence on up and coming leaders in the church?

IMHO, Driscoll's failings are even more serious than Haggard's, in that they hurt far more people. Haggard lost his church and public respect because of his mistakes. What would you suggest in Driscoll's case?

Just thinking out loud...

Peace,

-Mike

11/21/2006 11:51 AM  
Blogger Mike Clawson said...

BTW, the link to Mark's response is in my original post as well.

Thanks Dan. :)

11/21/2006 11:52 AM  
Blogger dan said...

Sorry Mike. I didn't notice the link to Mark's response in your initial post (links I've already hit are almost the same color as regular text). I thought I'd read where someone asked for it to be put up. My bad.

11/21/2006 12:07 PM  
Blogger Mike Clawson said...

No worries. The more links the better. The link in the original post was a later edit, so some people may have missed it the first time through. :)

11/21/2006 12:18 PM  
Blogger Julie said...

I am a strong proponent of women fulfilling who they are created to be, but women are created differently. There are several wonderfully strong women in our church -- Teresa, Shawna, Michelle, Terri, Lisa, and my wife -- to name the first ones to come to my mind. They all play leadership roles in our church. They can all hold their own in any situation a man could. But they are all women at the same time, and all choose to be "girlish" at times. And most of them (I won't speak for them all) want a strong man in their lives who brings leadership to their family.

what exactly do you mean by this? the whole "but women..." line you're using?

11/21/2006 12:36 PM  
Blogger Brian said...

Men and women are different. They are equal but not the same. I do believe God created men and women for different roles, not to say that women can't do men's roles or men women's roles. My wife and I have swapped in a few areas at different times. But that does not change in my mind that they are different.

When I say "girlish" I don't mean that derogatorily. They like to be pretty. They like for the man in their life to find them attractive. Men tend to want the woman in their life to see them as strong rather than attractive. These are generalizations and not true for every man or every woman, but true for most.

11/21/2006 1:21 PM  
Blogger Mike Clawson said...

Brian,

I can respect your opinion, but frankly I just plain disagree with this statement:

"I do believe God created men and women for different roles, not to say that women can't do men's roles or men women's roles."

Roles are culturally conditioned. What we think of as proper male or female roles vary radically from culture to culture. I don't think there are any specific God-ordained roles for men or women in the church, marriage or society (with exception of procreation).

To me it's a justice issue. I know you disagree with that as well, so I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Peace,

-Mike

11/21/2006 1:43 PM  
Blogger Shawna said...

Mike,

I have a problem with how you are painting what Mark has said in his post:

This is Mark's direct quote: "It is not uncommon to meet pastors’ wives who really let themselves go; they sometimes feel that because their husband is a pastor, he is therefore trapped into fidelity, which gives them cause for laziness. A wife who lets herself go and is not sexually available to her husband in the ways that the Song of Songs is so frank about is not responsible for her husband’s sin, but she may not be helping him either."

To me, there have been a lot of things read into what he said here. In your previous comment you said:

"basically blamed pastoral infidelities on pastor's wives who let themselves get fat and don't give their husbands enough sex."

I did not read that in what Mark said. He said "let themselves go". He mentioned nothing about weight, nor not giving enough sex. And he specifically said "is not responsible for her husband’s sin, but she may not be helping him either." Things have been read into what Mark said.

We must be careful about reading into another's statement. If we find something offensive in what someone's says, we should ask for clarification before assuming the worst.

You are correct, upon re-reading Mark's blog he did not apologize. And honestly now that I have reflected on it, I don't think he needs to. He didn't write anything offensive. It was taken that way. Instead he clarified what he meant.

On the subject of men and women being different--that is where I think the problem begins. Mark is coming from the viewpoint that men and women's roles are NOT culturally conditioned, but God-given.

Your viewpoint is that men and women's roles are culturally conditioned not God-given.

Mark is fighting for what he believes is God-given, just as you are. I don't think it's a justice issue with Mark. I think it's a doctrinal disagreement. Mark is not asking that women be killed or tortured or beaten. He is asking women to embrace their God-given role and asking men to step up into their God-given role.

You're right that this is where we'll have to agree to disagree. Because I 100% agree that our roles were God-given and that we were created equal, but different. I however am not as bold as Mark, nor as politically incorrect. So instead I quietly have my own beliefs and look for opportunities to share them with women around me, instead of boldly stating them from behind a pulpit.

Which viewpoint is correct? Well of course we both think ours is :) That's the tricky part of being Christians.

To me--if God didn't want our roles to be different, He would have created us in the exactly the same way (instead Adam was created from dust/Eve was created from Adam), he would have created us at the exact time (instead God created Adam FIRST, then Eve as the HELPER).

My belief is not based on a flippant thought or experience or feeling. It's based on scripture and what I feel God has revealed to me. And I totally believe that your belief is the same--it's not flippant, it's what God has revealed to you.

So how can either one be wrong? How can we ask that either be silent?

Equal but different--of course though we'll disagree on this one :)

Thanks for the conversation :)

11/22/2006 1:56 PM  
Blogger Julie said...

For those of you who think gender roles are God given - have you ever traveled, studied anthropology, or even missions? How do you reconcile that in non-western cultures the gender roles are different than our? Do you suggest that we must follow the examples of imperialism and impose western gender roles onto other cultures because we believe those roles are God given? What if doing so destroys their culture and upsets their economic system?

just curious how far you take those thoughts.

11/22/2006 2:45 PM  
Blogger Julie said...

oh and since I'm actually posting here, I thought I'd add an interesting bit I read in the comments at Jesus Creed recently. The topic of women as "separate but equal" came up and here was one response

I have heard this repeatedly as well is a categorical copout. God placed male and female in dominion over the earth as his image bearers (Gen 1:27-28). We bear God’s image in rationality, moral discernment, abstract creativity, etc. On one level we are saying that women equal to men. She is ontologically (in her being) equal.

Then we turn around and say woman is always and forever subordinate to man meaning she only uses her equally capable reason in deference to a man’s, her equally capable moral discernment in deference to a man’s, her equally capable abstract creativity in deference to a man’s, etc. In other words, she is not equal to a man as an image bearer of God because she can not exhibit her eiknonness except under the supervision of a man. In teleology (God’s end purposes for creation) she is unequal.

Where else in theology, anywhere in theology, do we make this kind of separation between ontology (what God created to be) and teleology (God’s end purposes)? We don’t. “Equal in being, unequal in role,” proponents look to the apostle’s application, in the epistles, of God’s eternal truth to specific time and space, 1st Century, contexts and then infer from that culturally transcendent practices. Yet here we are told not to infer inferiority?

The subordinationist Emperor has no clothes. “Equal in being, unequal in role” is a 21st century euphemism for “women are inferior” that would make George Orwell proud.

Comment by Michael Kruse — November 1, 2006 @ 2:29 pm

11/22/2006 2:57 PM  
Blogger Mike Clawson said...

Shawna,

As I said to Brian, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I think "different but equal" (which sounds way too much like "separate but equal" for my taste) is an unsupportable view both sociologically and biblically. Having a Masters degree in Intercultural Studies, I agree with my wife that when you begin to look at other cultures, you see that there is really no such thing as a universal differences between men and women, nor universal agreement on male and female roles.

And biblically speaking, where do you find any clear statement on "God-given" gender roles? I know that you don't agree with the complementarian interpretations of 1 Corinthians 11:2-16, 14:34-35, or 1 Timothy 2:11-15, because I've been to your church and I know that 1) you let women speak in church, 2) they don't have to have their heads covered, and 3) you yourself are in a position of leadership and authority in the church. So beyond those passages, where do you see much in the bible that says women have different roles than men, whether in the church, home, or society?

(BTW, the word "helper" for Eve is the exact same word used for how the Holy Spirit helps us as Christ followers. It's not a word that implies any kind of subordination.)

Personally, I don't disagree that men and women are, very broadly speaking, different. I just don't think that "different" means women should have different roles or be treated in any way subordinate to men.

In fact, if I were going to accept the argument that gender differences = different roles, I would be tempted to conclude that men should therefore not be pastors or leaders in the church. When I compare what Jesus said about leadership (cf. Matt 20:25-28) and what Paul says about the fruit of the Spirit (cf. Galatians 5:22-26) and the requirements for a church leader (cf. Titus 1:6-9), those qualities seem pretty out of step with the aggressive and violent stereotypes of masculinity that people like Driscoll and others in the church (not to mention our society at large) seem to be promoting for men these days. If we are to accept our culture's gender stereotypes (which I do not, but if we are) then I would say that women more often embody the kind of peace, patience, gentleness, kindness, servanthood, etc. that the Bible talks about as the requirements for spirit-filled Christian leadership.

For a more humorous take on this idea, check out this post on Top Ten Reasons Why Men Should Not Be Ordained. :)

Peace,

-Mike

11/22/2006 6:05 PM  
Blogger Brian said...

I'm curious. In the cultures of the world, what percentage is the woman considered the primary caregiver to the children? What percentage is the man considered to be the primary breadwinner?

11/22/2006 8:26 PM  
Blogger Mike Clawson said...

Most cultures of the world don't have the luxury of such categories. Since half the world lives on less than two dollars per day, in most cultures both men and women just do whatever is necessary to survive.

Our culture (i.e. America) was pretty much the same way for most of our history as well until the economic growth of the 20th century created enough of a middle class where women could have the luxury of staying home. (Ever seen the movies "Far and Away" or "Gangs of New York"? I guarantee that immigrants living by the skin of their teeth weren't too concerned about who was the breadwinner and who was the homemaker.)

So even in terms of our own culture the traditional assumptions about gender roles is really just about trying to establish a particular historical moment's ideals as normative. (I.e. those of the 1950's)

11/22/2006 10:04 PM  
Blogger Shawna said...

Julie,

Could you share with me specifically how gender roles are different in other places? And has it always been that way or has it evolved?

And yes, woman is always subordinate to a man because of Genesis 3:16 "Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you."

My understanding is that in the beginning it was the perfect union of husband and wife. They had mutual respect, mutual love, an unbroken trust. When Eve partook of the fruit, and Adam did nothing to stop her,(at least scripture doesn't show that he did anything)but also partook, then that perfect give and take of relationship was broken. Eve no longer trusted Adam to protect her. Adam no longer trusted Eve to make wise decisions. Thus history begins...

The fight for power is on.

I do not believe this curse has ever been lifted, nor will be on earth. And I believe that because God has not taken away the pain of chilbirth and if He were going to do away with the curse, I think He would have done away with the whole thing!

Mike,

I support my gender roles with the first few chapters of Genesis. God created Adam first, God holds Adam accountable first for the sin, and then God doles out punishment by choosing the "wife" to have children and the "husband" to painfully toil and work to produce food from the ground.

Thus establishes the path every person faces. We will try to change it (obviously), but it is how God has commanded it.

As far as the fruit of the Spirit, of course men do not naturally have those tendencies--it is relying on God that will bring about those "fruits".

In my opinion, God doesn't make anything that He asks of us easy. He makes it hard. That's why we have to seek Him in everything. On our own we can do nothing!

And on the cultures thing--from most cultures that I have heard--even the tribal places--women are the primary caregivers of the children and the men are the primary providers. The men are also the primary decision makers.

I'm not even sure the other cultures is a plausible argument, for I am speaking of how God created the earth, not how it has become. To say that gender roles are inaccurate because other cultures are different, doesn't really fit. At least in my mind. (which is a scary place at times :-)

Perhaps my views are simplistic. I do not have degrees or a phd, nor have I traveled the globe.

But I have a strong mind and a soft heart. And I try to remember that God asks me to come to Him as a little child--humble and meek, ignorant and moldable. I don't think I'm so good at the humble and meek part. The ignorant...definitely in some areas. Moldable--I desire to be.

It will be a while before I can come back to check in on the discussion--we fly out for Haiti on Friday. Thanks for the discussion.

11/22/2006 11:33 PM  
Blogger Mike Clawson said...

IMHO, the curse of sin is something that we, as Christ followers, should be working to overcome. That, to me, is the whole point of the gospel. If Genesis 3:16 is a result of sin, then why in the world would we want to hold that up as God's ideal? IMHO, the curse in Genesis 3 is God's warning of the consequences of our sin, not a statement of how he prefers things to actually be.

But, in Jesus and in the Body of Christ which is the Church, God is finally at work to reverse the curse of Genesis. That, in my theological understanding, is the essence of our hope for the future of the world. That is the vision laid out in Isaiah 65 (and elsewhere). It's about (among other things) restoring the relationships that have been broken because of sin - including the relationship between men and women that has been damaged by this "fight for power" you speak of. That, in my view, is what the gospel is all about.

That's why, IMHO, rigid gender roles are a result of sin, and why equality for women is, in my mind, a justice issue.

But that's just how I look at it,

-Mike


BTW, I did state that procreative functions are clearly an exception to my views on gender roles. You guys keep using childrearing as an example, but what I want to know is whether you genuinely think that there are other functions (beyond having in society or in the church that women (or men) are not "God-ordained" to do? And when it comes to childrearing, why is that necessarily the woman's job? Brian, your own life provides a counter-example to that view. Are you guys sinning against God's ordained roles because you stayed home with your youngest while your wife went back to work? How do you reconcile your own choices with what you say your believe about gender roles? I'm genuinely curious.

11/23/2006 1:07 AM  
Blogger Mike Clawson said...

Oops... that first bracket in my last paragraph should say: "(beyond having children)"

11/23/2006 1:08 AM  
Blogger Brian said...

Did I give you the impression that I believe in 1950's gender roles? In fact, I gave the counter example. There are historic roles from the beginning of time in most (?) cultures where men and women play different roles, usually the men playing the lead roles.

You said "you see that there is really no such thing as a universal differences between men and women, nor universal agreement on male and female roles."

In general, women see life differently than men. I say in general because I've definitely seen it reversed. But it not an even distribution. I don't think women see things in a lesser way, but definitely in a different way.

I do think in general (there are exceptions) women long to be beautiful and men long to be strong. For me not to tell me daughter that she is beautiful and my sons that they are strong would be a mistake on my part. Don't take this to the extreme. I don't dress my daughter up for pageants. I do encourage her strength. I encourage her intelligence.

11/23/2006 9:22 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Men and women are different---and not just in the ability to bear children.

Pastor Brian said:
"In general, women see life differently than men...
I do think in general (there are exceptions) women long to be beautiful and men long to be strong."

and Pastor Mike said:
" But they are all women at the same time, and all choose to be "girlish" at times. And most of them (I won't speak for them all) want a strong man in their lives who brings leadership to their family."

hmmmmmmmmmmm..........
If these things would be said directly to me (i.e. 'Felicia, you long to be beautiful but men long to be strong.' or 'Felicia, you are girlish at times and want a strong man to bring leadership to your family') I'm not sure if I would be offended or chuckle???

Wow, you guys are misinformed, I think.

It is a struggle for me to give my husband the leadership role and support him. Because it is what I believe Jesus wants from me, I work to that end. But as I tend to be independent and opinionated, I DO have to work at it.

As for "pretty"...LOL....the older I get, the less I'm concerned with "pretty". Pretty is pretty useless in the Christian walk. Whereas strength is necessary. I'd much rather be strong in character and dedication to Christ than "pretty". How shallow that makes us women sound!

There are definitely gender role differences prescribed in Scripture; both for women in general, and for wives specifically. I'm not sure how you can possibly deny that??? I don't think I need to point out the passages, but here they are anyway :-)

Eph 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

Eph 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so [let] the wives [be] to their own husbands in every thing.


1Cr 11:3 "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."

And, yes, I do realize that husbands are charged with loving their wives as Christ loves the Church----with His very life. That's the beauty of the Ephesians passage! It does not make the wife "less than". It's simply a different role. The husband may be the head of the family, but the wife is the heart; both are essential.

1Ti 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

1Cr 11:8 For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.
1Cr 11:9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

None of these verses are easy for me to swallow. And for many years you could find me "kicking against the goad", trying to find some other way to interpret what the Bible says on this matter. But the Holy Spirit says what He says, and I need to try my best to understand and follow the will of my God.

The ideal Christian woman/wife is one who is strong yet willing to submit; courageous yet humble; wise yet not proud; tough yet gentle; capable of leading yet willing to yield to her husband; sure of who she is yet rejoices in her husband's headship in Christ.

Far too often I fail as a model Christian wife---God surely knows---my husband could attest to that. :-( But, being pretty, girlish or needing leadership has nothing to do with it.

If this sounds harsh, it truly is not meant to be. It's JMHO.

Peace,
Felicia Swavely
PS. Hope everyone had a lovely Thanksgiving!

11/23/2006 7:21 PM  
Blogger Mike Clawson said...

Felicia,

Thank you for sharing your interpretations of these texts. I can respect your views on them, even though I disagree.

I'm sure you do realize that there are other ways to interpret the passages you mentioned (though I realize that you have an obligation to submit to the official teaching of your particular Church). IMHO, based on much study and agonizing over this issue, I've become convinced that a more historically and textually accurate interpretation of those verses does not in fact support the subordination of women. In other words, I don't think they mean what the traditional interpretations often say they mean - and (and this is important), I think that not because I'm trying to get the Bible to conform to what I want it to say, but because I honestly think that those more egalitarian interpretations are really more faithful to the biblical text and Paul's original intent.

However, I have no desire to get into a verse-by-verse debate with you about this. Instead, if you're curious and haven't already looked into this, I would refer you to a book entitled Good News for Women: A Biblical Picture of Gender Equality, or even to my comments in a discussion about this with some atheists over at the this thread at the eBay Atheist message boards.

Just to give a quick summary, I think Ephesians 5:22-33 really needs to be read in light of Ephesians 5:21 "Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ."

In other words, IMHO, submission is a mutual thing, and Paul's command to husbands and wives in the following verses is an example of Jewish parallelism - that is, he is saying the same thing to both of them, just in slightly different ways.

But again, this is just my intepretation. While I do think it is important, of course you all are free to disagree with it.

Happy Thanksgiving!

-Mike

11/23/2006 8:17 PM  
Blogger Mike Clawson said...

To share a little bit of my thoughts on this issue from a more personal angle...

I need a theology that has room enough for people like me, like my wife, and like the people that we have always gravitated towards in our ministry - that is, the kind of people who don't easily fit within the typical societal roles (whether in regard to gender, or most other kinds of roles as well). We have always been more of misfits and oddballs when it comes to the traditional expectations for masculinity and femininity. And we seem to have a heart for reaching out to fellow oddballs and misfits too.

The thing is, I need a theology that has room for oddballs and misfits. To me it really feels like complementarianism says "There's something wrong, maybe even sinful, about who you are if you don't fit the mold of traditional gender roles. If you're not a 'wild at heart' alpha male, then you're not really living up to who God made you to be as a man. You simply need to repent and get with the program."

In other words, from my point of view, complementarianism simply doesn't have enough room in it for people like me.

In contrast, I prefer a theology that believes God has made each of us, as individuals, different, and that while some of that difference is certainly related to our sex (biology) and gender (sociology), it is never reduceable to that. I am shaped by my gender, but not determined by it. God's "ordained" role for me is not because of my gender, but because of my unique individual identity-within-community.

IMHO, that view still allows plenty of room for alpha males and girly girls to have their place in God's kingdom work, while also allowing room for oddballs and misfits like me at the same time

11/23/2006 9:00 PM  
Blogger Mike Clawson said...

Have a great trip to Haiti you guys! :)

I'll look forward to continuing this conversation when you get back.

11/23/2006 10:41 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well, Pastor Mike, I guess I'm a misfit also....sort of an alpha female :-) Maybe we should all sail off to the Isle of Misfit Christians! ;-)

Seriously, though, I'm not just spouting what my denomination tells me to believe. I've arrived at this understanding after much prayerful consideration of Scripture. God's way isn't always the way that seems to make sense to us mere mortals. And often it goes against our nature to submit to His will for our lives. [why am I telling you this? :-) ]

I'm not "less than" my husband...I just have a different role. My husband is in no way a domineering type of guy. He has no intrinsic need to lord it over me. But it is his God-given responsibility to take a leadership role in the family.

Pastor Mike said: "Just to give a quick summary, I think Ephesians 5:22-33 really needs to be read in light of Ephesians 5:21 "Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ." "

Yes, exactly! Jesus submitted to the Father---but it did not make Him somehow "not equal" with the Father!
This explains it beautifully:

From the Mercedarian Order's Fourth Vow: "...All the same it must be said that this "kenosis of obedience" (Emptying Himself of the form of God, Phil 2:7) must be based on the Eternal Kenosis of the Divine Persons one to another: it must be one of the infinite aspects of eternal life."

In human terms, submission is an act of one who is "less", to one who is "greater". This is not the case in the kingdom. Submission is a free act of love between equals.

Pastor Mike said: "I've become convinced that a more historically and textually accurate interpretation of those verses does not in fact support the subordination of women."

I hear you. However, the difference, as I see it, is that subordination is something that is done TO you. I am not "subordinated". I choose [in my better moments :-)] to submit. Just as my husband must choose to submit to me at times.

Pastor Mike said: "In other words, IMHO, submission is a mutual thing, and Paul's command to husbands and wives in the following verses is an example of Jewish parallelism - that is, he is saying the same thing to both of them, just in slightly different ways."

Yes and no. There is clearly a difference...
Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is head of his wife just as Christ is head of the church

Believe me, I spent years trying to make this mean something different! :-) But it says what it says. And it works.

I don't want to beat this issue into the ground. And I also respect your views---especially since, as a man, you are, in a sense, giving up your leadership role by your interpretation. So I will agree to disagree.

One last comment...

Pastor Mike said:
"The thing is, I need a theology that has room for oddballs and misfits...
God's "ordained" role for me is not because of my gender, but because of my unique individual identity-within-community."

Christianity has plenty of room for "oddballs and misfits"---that's mainly who Jesus hung out with, ain't it?
I'm not saying a Christian woman/wife needs to be weak---heavens no! Just between you and me, I can hardly stand to listen to women on Christian radio who speak as if they have no backbone.

All I'm saying is that in certain situations, we need to submit to God's will, despite our inclinations, trusting that He knows what is best.

Jesus didn't say, "the Father needs to realize that I am God Incarnate and I can't be expected to submit to Him and yield to these mere humans", did He? Who He is did not deter Him from laying aside His divinity and carrying out the Father's will.

Sometimes we need to lay aside part of ourselves and do the same.

God bless,
Felicia Swavely

PS. I greatly respect your willingness to stand by your beliefs and your courage to be honest about who you are.

Hope you had a great Thanksgiving!

11/23/2006 11:22 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The original quote about pastor's wives letting themselves go seems to have ignited this whole debate, so I guess that is where I want to start.

When Brian graduated from seminary and I "officially" became a pastor's wife, I was given a book by Jerry Jenkins called "Hedges -- Loving Your Marriage Enough to Protect It". The copyright is 1989, so, yes, it is ancient by today's standards. It is written by a man, for men. He suggests that all men are susceptible to falling into temptation without realizing what they are doing. By building hedges (basic behavior rules), men protect their marriage from these pitfalls. They are your basic rules: not meeting with a woman alone, travel safeguards, conversation do's/don'ts, etc.

Jenkins never addresses the hedges a woman should create. Frankly, most of the suggestions for men should be the same for women. But I think Driscoll was on to something when he said women shouldn't let themselves go. To me, this is a hedge: a simple protection. Not a necessity, but a fairly easy thing to do to protect the marriage. If "Hedges" was written by a woman, would she have included this? I'm not sure.

I'm not saying that this is THE answer. I'm not saying that a woman who lets herself go can expect her husband to cheat on her. I've had three kids, and I KNOW there have been times that I've not been exactly attractive! ;o) Extra weight, post-partum depression, blah, blah, blah. Brian never cheated when I went through my rough times, but I sure didn't make things easy on him. My looks and attitude definitely affected him negatively. And before you think he's a jerk -- let me remind you he's a man. As Brian has mentioned we use "His Needs, Her Needs" (Harley) often. One of a man's top 5 needs TENDS TO BE an attractive spouse.

But here's the thing: Brian has hedges in place that kept him from looking elsewhere. It is a 2-way street. The woman cannot make the man sin, but she can make it easier by giving him an emotional "reason". Yes, women have to be careful; but, also, so do the men.

In marriage, someone needs to be the head. There are times when a couple comes to an impasse on a decision. I believe the man is truly the head of the marriage. Back to Genesis, Adam was created, but was imcomplete. God knew he needed a "helper" (and yes, I've seen the debate on this word). Then it says a man will join with the woman and the two will become one. To quote Jerry Macquire, "you complete me." We are incomplete somehow without the other. Together we work best. Ephesians says we mutually benefit: the woman submits to the man & the man loves her so much he would die for her. I gladly submit to Brian knowing he indeed loves me like that. We definitely complete each other: his strengths fill my weaknesses and vice versa.

I believe this is what Driscoll is TRYING to say. His approach is a bit Dr. Phil: I've got 5 minutes to get my point across, let me be blunt and get right to the point. That doesn't always work. However, I know people who wish Brian would yell and tell them to straighten up instead of entering a dialogue with them. There are people who seem to need that for whatever reason. Jonah didn't sugar coat anything in Nineveh. I wonder if Seattle seems to feel like that to Mark?

I accept that we are all different. Even "His Needs, Her Needs" challenges each couple to figure out each other's needs because not all people will fit the ones he lays out. I've laughed a few times reading everyone's comments here: aren't we all glad we found the spouse that we have? Mike & Julie, Shawna & Josh, me & Brian, Amy & John: any other mix might be lethal! ;o) God has blessed us all with the right person to complete us!

BTW, thanks for your comments, Felicia! I appreciate your views!

11/24/2006 11:02 AM  
Blogger Mike Clawson said...

In regards to pastor's wives "letting themselves go", a few questions immediately raise themselves in my mind:

1) What about those pastor's wives who never "had it" to begin with? I can think of at least one pastor I've had in the past whose wife simply was not at all physically attractive. (I'm not trying to be mean; she just wasn't.) And it wasn't just because of age. I saw their wedding pictures, and she was not any better looking back then either. Is she (and her husband) just SOL according to Driscoll? Or maybe she was just lucky enough to have a husband who didn't place having a physically attractive wife in his top five in the first place.

2) What about the fact that all women's (and men's) appearances will "go" eventually, whether we let them or not? Age catches up to us all, and none of us can stay physically attractive for the rest of our lives (without some serious plastic surgery). What then? I'm glad Mark Driscoll has such a hot wife now, but I'd hate to be Grace Driscoll in 10 or 15 years from now when she is just incapable of looking as beautiful as she used to be. How insecure that must make a wife feel to know that her husband's continued attraction to her is so dependent on an outward beauty that she has so little control over.

3) In this society of ours that so constantly communicates to women that their value is inextricably tied to their outward beauty - how thin they are, how "hot" they look, etc. - is it really the best thing to be telling women that they're not doing enough to take care of their outward appearance? With all the women who already struggle with eating disorders and poor self-image, should we really be encouraging this mindset that beauty = attractiveness = value?

4) Likewise, in a culture which repeatedly encourages men to treat women as sex objects and value them primarily for their bodies, is it really the best policy to tell a bunch of pastors (which Mark says was his audience) that they should talk to their wives about not letting themselves go? Maybe it's our own cultural assumptions about women and beauty that are messed up in the first place. Maybe we need to instead be training men to take physical attractiveness out of their top five "needs".

(On a personal note, I can say that as a man, Mark's advice about wives not letting themselves go is not helpful at all. I'm trying to be less sexually demanding and more considerate of my wife. Mark's advice, if I were to take it to heart, only serves to make me bitter and resentful towards my wife for not trying harder to please me.)

5) How does Mark's advice square with what Peter tells women in 1 Peter 3:3-4,

"Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as braided hair and the wearing of gold jewelry and fine clothes. Instead, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God's sight."

It sounds to me like Peter is telling us to resist our dominant culture which pressures women to be so concerned with their outward appearances.

11/24/2006 11:42 PM  
Blogger Douglas Molgaard said...

Beauty must begin from with in. A pastors wife may be beautiful on the outside but be a real bitch. Unfortunately this is often the case where marriages go south. It is the alpha woman with the puppy dog male. Rolls have changed in society. We don't talk about males being abused by their wives often verbal but also physical.

I think Felecia had the better take on Ephesians 5. There is a protocol for us to follow and if we do we all win and marriages will last.

As for the pastor with an unattractive wife, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder and she probably has a beautiful personality. Plus he doesn't have to worry about all the men in the church flirting with his wife. Who knows maybe the pastors wife is so beautiful that all the men flirt with her and she is so taken by all the attention that she cheats on her husband. This does happen much to often.

Perhaps Driscoll is to conservative for the EC but he has provoked an important conversation.

I had T-day dinner with Andrew Jones on Thursday in Denmark. He is a good friend of Driscoll he said he didn't want to say much on the subject publicly so I won't tell you about our conversation but he did say that the conservatives will soon realize that Driscoll doesn't fit into their camp either and he will soon be standing alone.

I have a new blog called, missio dei scandia. It is to discuss the missional church in Scandinavia you are welcome to check it out.

blog.molgaard.se

11/25/2006 3:46 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Pastor Douglas and Pastor Mike:
AMEN and AMEN!!! Thank you for recognizing the damage done to women by the pressure put upon them to look good for men.

And we women can cut our husbands some slack also---they can't all look like Brad Pitt. :-)

"The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control"....If we wives strive for these things, our husbands will be drawn to us, and our union will honor the most high God who wills us to help each other to grow in holiness.

God bless you guys!
Peace,
Felicia Swavely

11/25/2006 7:11 AM  
Blogger Brian said...

A couple of clarifications.

1. Submission does not equal acceptance of abuse. Abuse is wrong and is a justice issue we should always stand for. Submission is not a "yes sir/no sir/keep your mouth shut and do what I say." Submission is a willingness to put yourself second and should be the heart of every Christian.

2. Beauty does not equal subjective attractiveness. Beauty is more than looks. All women are beautiful. Mike's remarks on "those pastor's wives who never "had it" to begin with" do not change a woman's beauty. The pastor who married the woman Mike finds unattractive most likely finds his wife plenty attractive.

3. Submission is a key aspect to Christianity. We are called to submit to God, to our leaders, to the laws of our land, to our employers, and to each other. To throw out submission is costly.

12/01/2006 5:38 PM  
Blogger Mike Clawson said...

Just to clarify on my part:

1) I agree that my former pastor's wife was beautiful in ways that had nothing to do with outward sexual attractiveness. That was kind of my point in the first place

2) Who suggested that we throw out submission? Personally, I totally agree that submission should be central for all Christians. That's why I'm not a complementarian. Complementarianism seems to say that submission only goes one way when it comes to men and women. (Or else defines a man's submission to his wife in such a way that it is rather less "submissive" than hers towards him.)

12/02/2006 10:54 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

6/30/2007 6:04 AM  
Blogger Brian said...

Our policy is not to allow anonymous posts, so I have deleted the most recent comment to this thread.

Brian

6/30/2007 8:17 AM  
Blogger bill Sloat said...

Brian,

IMHO the anonymous post you deleted was too funny to lose. Glad I still have in my email. (I understand that you had to delete it.)

But, honestly, how many people with theological degrees have spirits just as surly or even more so after they take possession of their diploma?

6/30/2007 1:07 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Over a year later, things have not improved:

http://mytrueself.typepad.com/my_true_self/2008/01/hes-on-the-tabl.html

1/21/2008 3:04 PM  

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