A “Radical CGGC Orthodoxy”
One unfortunate accusation leveled against the Emerging Church is that it rejects truth. The reality is that Emerging Church people sometimes have difficulty embracing truth as their Evangelical friends understand it. For Emerging folks, Evangelical ‘truth’ sometimes bears the brand of modernity to so great a degree that people in Emerging circles suspect that it can’t be biblical. From where I sit, Emerging Church people are at least as concerned with truth as are Evangelicals.
Because I love the CGGC, distrust modernism and yearn for a vibrant outreach to postmoderns, I live with tension.
The root of my tension lies with C. H. Forney.
The fact is that what we say we believe in We Believe, we believe primarily as a result of the influence of C. H. Forney.
For those of you who are a little fuzzy on Forney, here are some of the highlights of his biography. Christian Henry Forney was born in 1839 and was the son of Christian T. Forney, an important lay leader in the early CGGC. Christian Henry sensed a call to ministry in the Church of God early in his life and attended Oberlin College, where revivalist Charles Finney was President. Forney’s father’s early and unexpected death forced him to withdraw from college and return home to Pennsylvania. He entered the ministry in 1860, became the editor of The Church Advocate in 1869 and remained in that position for 40 years. He is, without doubt, the most influential theologian in the history of the CGGC. He is the author of History of the Churches of God in the United States of North America. He also published several works on the ordinances.
And, if you look up the word modernist, in the dictionary, you will see a little sketch of C. H. Forney.
That’s not to say that Forney was theologically liberal. He wasn’t. He was loyal to his CGGC roots. Nevertheless, he brought a spirit of creativity to his defense of Winebrenner’s work that significantly transformed it.
This is what S. G. Yahn said about Forney:
“…Dr. Forney was thoroughly loyal to the old landmarks. He was true to the spirit of Winebrenner, Thomas and other leaders who had preceded him. At the same time he was aggressive. He developed the plans of Winebrenner into wider spheres, and, when wise and necessary, carried them out with new methods, but always with an eye single to the honor of the truth and the prosperity of the churches.”
Yahn is correct on both counts.
Forney sought to preserve Winebrenner on all the major points. But, when Yahn says that Forney was “aggressive” and that he “developed what Winebrenner did in wider spheres” he hits the heart of the matter. Forney boldly took the CGGC where John Winebrenner would have never gone.
Winebrenner and Forney lived in different times. Their eras were separated by the publication of two transformational academic works. In 1859 Charles Darwin published The Origin of Species and in 1876 Julius Wellhausen published The Composition of the Hexateuch, which examined Scripture in the way a biologist would study a fossil and proposed that there were four sources for the authorship of the first five books of the Bible and that Moses was not their author. The era of Forney’s maturity from the 1880s on was one in which science reigned, even in the study of Scripture and in the formulation of doctrine. C. H. Forney was a man of his age. He brought to the defense of CGGC doctrine a scientific precision that would have been incomprehensible to John Winebrenner.
Much of what is accepted as doctrine in the CGGC has its official roots in John Winebrenner, but traces it current form, not to Winebrenner, but to Forney.
The most notable example of the impact of Forney on the CGGC is in the doctrine of Feetwashing (or as Winebrenner spelled it, Feet Washing). Forney’s The Philosophic Basis of the Ordinances is built on the argument that Feetwashing portrays the ‘humiliation’ of Christ (Forney’s term for the incarnation), not the ‘humility’ of Christ. However, Winebrenner in his sermon, “The Ordinance of Feet Washing,” states four reasons why Christ instituted the ordinance. The first of these was “To give His disciples an example of His deep humility.” The third reason was, “To symbolize or represent the two cardinal graces of the Christian character--humility and love.”
Forney’s The Philosophic Basis of the Ordinances is scientific. It is a work of its age. And, it unabashedly distorts and ultimately rejects Winebrenner’s view in an effort to preserve it.
Forney’s reinterpretation of Winebrenner’s teaching on Feetwashing, while the extreme example, is suggestive of the manner in which orthodox CGGC thinking has been modernized since Winebrenner’s death.
I’ve been asking myself for some time now; can a person be a disciple of John Winebrenner and, at the same time, a heretic these days in the CGGC?
I dunno. But, I certainly hope not.
Radical Orthodoxy is a movement that has resonance among some in the Emerging Church. The movement traces its roots to Anglicanism in the 1990s. It is a call for a theology that is based in revelation and eschews modernism’s trust in reason, even to the point that it seeks wisdom in pre-Reformation thought.
I’m not Anglican. I don’t feel the need to diminish the impact of the Reformers. But I am finding the wisdom of the pre-Darwin/pre-Wellhausen era increasingly enticing. The more closely I study him, the better John Winebrenner looks to me. The more carefully I think about it, the more I am convinced that Winebrenner had it just about right.
And, so, I’m just about ready to conclude that it’s time for a move toward a Radical CGGC Orthodoxy--a Winebrennerian critique of what we believe and do--a move to our roots.
Does that make me a Winebrennerian or a heretic?
146 Comments:
Six years ago I couldn't even spell Winebrinerian, winebrenerian, Winebrennerian, so I am not the best one to reflect on the influence on Forney on Winebrenner but I have two general comments--to ask the questions does not make us heretics it affirms our belief in the living word. Secondly, maybe it is time to take a call for a meeting of the minds. "Don't despise prophecies but approve all things. Hold on to that which is good...."
Lew,
Six years ago you couldn't spell Winebrennerian. Hopefully you can now.
Thing is, I'm not sure the CGGC these days can spell it. Sadly, I suspect that not enough of it has a trace of motivation to spell it.
Our culture is struggling with the very concept of Truth and the CGGC is content to recite the intellectual musings of the CGGCers from the turn of the last century and settle for that as truth.
We hope to renew ourselves and transform an unbelieving generation based in a strategy built on singing church music in a more attractive style.
Truth matters.
Paul said, "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned."
Honestly, I suspect that by asking the question no one is going to deem me a heretic. The tragic reality is that no one will probably care.
As I see it, few in the CGGC really care about engaging truth and the unbelieving culture which needs to be redeemed through it.
You are correct that it's time to call for a meeting of the minds. Really, it's past time.
However, I think that there is too much Laocidean lukewarmness about truth to get the minds involved in a conversation.
Hope I'm wrong and will have to enter an apology on this blog for saying it.
Bill, When I read your post last week I wanted to respond right away to encourage you. Since then I have had more time to think about what you wrote. I have also been doing some serious soul searching recently and your post and my search have converged at one point, at least.
I have been preaching through Galatians and I was stopped short at 1:8 (which you also quoted). I came to the very sad conclusion that what I heard growing up was another gospel. I emphasize "what I heard" because it may be I heard wrong. But if it took me 21 years to figure out that it's all about Jesus then something got fouled up somewhere. (And I am still recovering.)
I know I need to commit myself to a clear presentation of the truth for the rest of my ministry or risk anathema. I don't know what position emergingcggc bloggers are in to call for a forum but isn't it worth it to see what interest there is?
We are all influenced by our time and our culture more than we would like to admit and that was certainly true of Forney also. However, we could bring some balance by meeting with our brothers and sisters from other cultures (Haiti, India, Pakistan, etc.)
I could almost cry to think that what I heard (and even said) for much of my Christian life could have been another gospel.
Lew,
Several years ago I led devotions for our Renewal Commission and used Galatians 1:8 as my jumping off point. I said that truth is an essential dimension in renewal and that we should be monitoring what is being preached and taught in renewal congregations and we should also hold pastors and teachers accountable on the issue of truth.
I was stunned by the response--which generated a heated discussion that lasted more than an hour. My dissertation defense was a stroll in the park on a sunny spring day compared to the grilling I received. And, to my chagrin, it wasn't my thesis that truth is important in renewal that was being attacked. I'd'a been glad to deal with that. It was actually Paul's wish that people who preach a different Gospel be eternally condemned.
I was challenged with the remark, "You sound like you are the only one who has the truth," for suggesting that we take Paul seriously.
Maybe so.
But God's inspired Word contains this remark from Paul: "But if even we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned."
Biblically speaking, truth matters.
Speaking anecdotally, that notion is so intimidating among followers of Jesus today that they'd like to imagine that it's not there.
(And, while people outside of the Emerging Church chide us for our lack of concern for truth, everyone who attacked me that day for proposing that we take Galatians 1:8 to heart was a self-professed Evangelical.)
Thanks, Lew, for giving us a picture of your heart. Paul's comment in Galatians should do that to all of us. It should produce humility, as it has in you, not arrogance.
Re: "I don't know what position emergingcggc bloggers are in to call for a forum but isn't it worth it to see what interest there is?"
Let's go ahead and call for the forum. I think it's a great place to start.
There are a lot of people who lurk around the edges of this blog who don't ever write on it. Important people in our leadership and pastors of important congregations. I know that because they tell me, from time to time, that they've read something I've written here.
So, gang, and you know who you are: What do you think about Lew's suggestion that we begin a conversation?
Bill,
Perhaps the lack of responds to you challenge is a result of the pluralistic post-modern culture we find ourselves in.
"You believe what you want and I believe what I want, she believes what she wants and he believes what he wants and we can all just get a long together."
If one wants to follow Winebrenner and another Forney and another an emerging conversation that is their choice. But we all get along in this denomination called CGGC.
The one we should follow is Christ! That would make us a Christians not Winebrennerians.
Also a discussion on truth can be difficult in the pluralistic post-modern culture we find ourselves in even when it comes to trying to rationalize truth to “Modernist”.
However I do get your point! The “church” we find ourselves in is not speaking the language of today that people can understand as did Winebrenner and Forney in their times.
As Kierkegaard says: Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards.
We can learn from those that gave us our heritage but we also need to move forward and for that movement forward I hope you can create this forum.
Note: A good place to start such a forum is in Facebook. There you can start a group that can discuss these issues.
Doug,
Re: "Perhaps the lack of responds to your challenge is a result of the pluralistic post-modern culture we find ourselves in."
I've given your idea some thought. But, consider the blog on which I entered my post. Think about who participates here.
In Scot McKnight's Christianity Today article, Five Streams of the Emerging Church, McKnight identifies three groupings of emergents, which he acknowledges that he 'borrows' from Doug Pagitt from Solomon's Porch in Minneapolis. They are those who "minister to postmoderns, others with postmoderns, and still others as postmoderns."
For your observation to be accurate, the participants on this blog would have to all or nearly all in that third, most extreme category.
McKnight says that the vast majority of emerging Christians fall into the first two categories. And, I suppose that most of us are even a little more conservative than the whole universe of emerging Christians.
So, while you may be right on, a little 60s lingo there, I doubt it.
No.
I continue to live in fear of the reality that truth is something we just don't take seriously enough.
Actually, I wish I could agree that the emerging people in the CGGC were "as" people. I'd be out of step with them, but I could work with that. It's certainly not lukewarm.
But, I really suspect that lukewarmness--at least as far as truth is concerned--is the disease which the CGGC has contracted.
Bill,
I think if we are true to the context that we are in a pluralistic post-modern culture then we need to suspect that we are all influenced by it in some way and you as a post-modernist should except differences.
When it comes to lukewarmness that is a different issue.
I think it would be good if you could give us your definition of truth and compare that with Mike's definition and George's definition.
RE: "Actually, I wish I could agree that the emerging people in the CGGC were "as" people. I'd be out of step with them, but I could work with that. It's certainly not lukewarm."
Could you explain that.
Thanks!
Doug,
Re: "I think if we are true to the context that we are in a pluralistic post-modern culture then we need to suspect that we are all influenced by it in some way and you as a post-modernist should except differences."
I suspect that your cultural context, living where you do, is strikingly different than the one in which I live.
I normally pass about a dozen buggies carrying Mennonites to church when I drive to worship on Sundays. The guy at the end of my street rides in one of them.
The definition of pluralism in your neighborhood is different than mine.
Most CGGCers over here are rural or small town. The postmodern challenge is not as purvasive for most of us as it is for you.
Brian, Ben, Dan, Phil, vieux, George and I aren't enmeshed in the intense postmodern struggle that defines your ministry. I won't speak for Tammie and Justin. Mike, I suspect, is truly Emergent, not Emerging.
I still think I have the identified this context more accurately than have you.
As far as my comment, "Actually, I wish I could agree that the emerging people in the CGGC were "as" people. I'd be out of step with them, but I could work with that. It's certainly not lukewarm," is concerned:
I was referring to Pagitt/McKnight's three categories of emerging Christians. Some are moderns who minister TO postmoderns.
Others have dipped their toe into the postmodern culture, engage it, are neither modern nor postmodern and remian counter-culture as far as postmodernism is concerned and minister WITH postmoderns.
Others, like the Emergent crowd, have become postmodern as minister to those who do not follow Jesus AS fellow postmoderns.
Thanks Bill,
I still think redneck culture is more influenced by post-modernism then you realize.
I did pastor a small country church in W.PA with those buggies driving by. So I do understand that culture.
I know that many in that culture is stuck on tradition that was influenced by the Forney generation.
I know that the younger generation is not interested in what was and the result of that is the decline in Church attendance.
I know that the youth coming out of these churches are going to universities that are influenced by post-modernism not to mention the influence of the media and the net.
Perhaps it is here that we need to wake up to the truth.
The world is changing!
Back to the post at hand, will a "Radical CGGC Orthodoxy" be enough to make a difference or have we moved beyond that?
If the culture I am living in is what is ahead for America then we better start talking!!
If my European perspective can be of any help in the hopeful forum include me in.
Blessings!
Doug,
"I still think redneck culture is more influenced by post-modernism then you realize."
I'm not sure if we're arguing or not. Are we? If so, what are we arguing about?
Earlier this summer three of us who are serving congregations in the Eastern Region got Crystal Downing, the author of How Postmodernism Serves (my) Faith, to sit down with us for a two hour chat.
Crystal's fiftyish and a prof at Messiah College in the Greater Harrisburg area. She's definitely a postmodern and darn proud of it. I asked her, "What percentage of the students that come to Messiah are postmodern?"
She said, "About 10%."
These are 18-21 year old people. Nearly all of them are church kids, true. But, most of them also attended US public schools and watch MTV. And, they are brighter and better intellectually connected than the average people their age.
Anyway, I still suspect that the reason the discussion on truth that I began on THIS BLOG isn't going far has little to do with the impact of postmodernism on us. I continue to fear that we're just lukewarm.
You are correct. The world is changing. I just don't think that that's the issue here and now on this blog.
Pure "Nosiness" --
Who is the "George" being referred to here? If it's me, then how in the Charles John Huffam Dickens did my name end up here since I didn't even comment on this post??? By the way, I'm not trying to be a "Scrooge" (Pun definitely intended). Someone please give me an answer!!!!!
-Rev. George Jensen
Enola, PA
George,
You are the George to whom I was referring. I simply went down the list of people who at least semi-regularly read and interact on this blog.
Obviously, I was correct in adding you to my list. If I was in error, you'd'a never seen that a George was mentioned.
If I am in error and you are, in fact, enmeshed in the intense postmodern struggle in the Enola area, I humbly apologize for misrepresenting your ministry context.
I'm very interested in this conversation. I just didn't see it. I follow the conversation by the email's produced and Bill's comments have not been producing emails. I just noticed Dan referring to Bill's comments and figured out I'm not getting them. Maybe it is time to rethink the commenting technical system.
As for the conversation, Kent Hunter, the Church Doctor came to a Midwest Region teaching session to show us how to implement his 70 Days of Vision. He gave each of us a "test" with around a 100 questions. This was to test how well we rate in each of his 10 areas. I had all of our church's vision team there plus a few others, and almost all of them were bothered by the fact that there were "right" answers. I was not so bothered by it, so I suspect I am in category 2.
I'd be interested in a forum.
So now we have at least 4 people interested in a Forum (Bill, Doug, Brian, and me if I counted right.) Where do we go from here?
Maybe the book I mentioned in my post of three weeks ago can provide a framework (An Emergent Theology for the Emerging Church). Whatever we do let's take the next step.
I turn sixty next month (I will celebrate with a game of basket ball) but I am just arriving now at a place in my life to take a serious look at what really matters.
If I read him correctly, I think Dan is in favor of a forum.
Am I correct, Dan?
Well, it depends on the day. Today I am not in favor of much of anything (nothing personal against any of you).
The forum sounds like a great idea, but if doesn't include anyone beyond this blog, how is it any different from this blog?
I would encourage taking some time with the idea and trying to find an organization (the Eastern Region, Winebrenner Seminary, etc.) that may be interested in taking part as well.
If new voices and ideas, beyond this blog, are a part then I am interested in more information.
This is Brent - I have no idea what my password is right now. So I am posting under the anonymous option.
Before the idea of a forum becomes blog history I will add one more thought. I agree with Brent that any forum must be broader than the contributors to this blog. I already suggested inviting someone from Haiti or India to help us break out of any cultural encrustrations. Perhaps a way to take another step is to see if this forum can be a part of the Annual Conference in Eastern Region Conference. Bill do you have any pull? Is George Spangler reading this? Call me or better yet call Bill!
I already recruited some attendees at the District MInisterium today.
Bill,
Me thinks that you press the notion that Forney "unabashedly distorts and ultimately rejects Winebrenner’s view in an effort to preserve it" a little too far.
I want to say up front that I respect you greatly and do not dispute that you know more CGGC history than I ever will. Please do not look as this as “argument”, but rather as “dialogue.” I do not pretend to hold a candle to what you know, but I disagree with that premise that you stated. "Open Forum" as this is, I am going to take it on.
Winebrenner and Forney were not as much at odds as you might think. Actually, in reading their material (which I am making a regular practice of), I see Winebrenner as the hammer, and Forney as the anvil. I respect them greatly. I also see them both as the men of God for their separate times, given by God to this denomination that would lead the way to bring this fellowship to the place where God has it today. God has providentially shaped the theology of the Churches of God in the use of both of these men. We should certainly not worship either of them (they are only human beings), but it would be a good thing for us not to just go off half cocked and choose to ignore one or the other (or even the both) of them. We do this at our peril. I say it again: God has used both of them.
John Winebrenner was an effective 5-10 point sermonizer. You can see his training in his craft very clearly. I greatly admire his ability to persuade as he did. It has to be said however-he did not exactly make the point for feetwashing as an ordinance in his sermon as effectively as what he needed to do in order to lay out practices for a denomination. That is not a slap against him; it is just the facts. His forte (if I spelled that right) was preaching and teaching, not sitting with his books in the library and researching. There is a lot more to defending ordinances than just quoting Scripture and arguing emotionally (which Winebrenner was very good at doing). Quite honestly, if I was trying to make up my mind on this issue, and had just read Winebrenner's sermon on feet-washing, I am not sure that I would be able to proceed on his arguments. His rhetorical skills might serve actually to put me off. He tended to be a bit heavy handed at times. I am not sure that I would be able to buy his argument for the ordinance long-term (correct as it was-looking at it after the fact).
The fact is, it took Forney to come along and drive home the need to practice this wonderful ordinance that we have, by bringing the logic (and philosophy) that he did to the argument. I for one believe that he did a bang-up job. He used Scripture, tradition, reason, and experience. When I came into the Churches of God, I was not at all sure about feet-washing as an ordinance. Forney (in my studying) has knocked it out of the park. Forney was good and he knew his stuff. And I do not believe that it is appropriate to say that he was all logic (modernistic) either. I am very (irrationally?) inspired when I read pgs. 133-34 of his work, (the hard copy-brownish one that you gave to me) “We are satisfied! We will cheerfully do what Jesus has said we ‘ought’ to do.” It is very easy to see why it is almost impossible (post-Forney) in the Churches of God not to practice feet-washing as an ordinance. Not because of his "modernity,” but rather, because, he just knew what he was talking about.
I for one would not be in favor of having any forums to revisit any Churches of God theology. It is good, and it is pure, and we as God's servants today just need to put it into practice. I am in favor of staying away from non-essentials like setting dates in eschatology, etc… We need to stay away from rather the King James (which I love) and 16th-20th century hymnals are the inspired word of God, all of this goes without saying. I am not in favor, however, of going back, as so many are today, and questioning what God has providentially done through His church. It is quite all-right thank you. He knew what He was doing after all (as modern as it was). We need to stop conforming to the culture like we do, and just do what Christ has commanded (set out the Word of God). The future growth of the Churches of God is not in the programs that we embrace, rather it will be in rather we are obedient to the WORD. The same One who was with God in the beginning who gives us a portrait of Himself in the leather-bound books that we should have in our laps. If we are doing what he has commanded us to (whether we are really is an argument for another day), God will most certainly do what He needs to do (no matter how skeptical the culture might seem). HE WILL change people's hearts.
I am sorry that I am not in a position right now to argue modernity vs. post-modernity stuff. I will say (as I’m sure you can see) that I am unconvinced (skeptical) by it all. I do not know if I believe that objective truth is as ambiguous as what some would have us to believe. I will be doing more research on this, as I work my doctoral thesis and determine what effect (if any) that post-modern (skeptical) age has on my preaching. I will comment then. Until that time, I've made myself look as stupid as I need to at this point. I'll sign off and talk to you later.
Ken Zitsch
The Wallaceton Church of God
Ken,
I’ll grant that when I say “Forney unabashedly distorts and ultimately rejects Winebrenner’s view in an effort to preserve it" I may go a little too far. To say that he’s unabashed about it may be overdoing it just a wee bit. But, while I’m sincere in all I enter on this blog, my goal is to provoke thought and meaningful conversation. If using that word provoked your participation on the blog, then I’ll conclude that it was a judicious choice of words.
Welcome to the discussion. I hope this comment of yours will only be the first of many.
And, as far as your fear that I’ll take what you’ve written as an argument against what I’ve written is concerned, relax. I won’t break. It was a long time ago that I realized that I’m not always correct. Feel free to argue with me. I know if you do it’s all motivated by your love of the Lord, of His Church and of me, His child.
As to the degree to which Winebrenner and Forney are at odds, I’m afraid that I disagree with you. One of the concerns I have about our understanding of our history is that it often isn’t honest--that it tends to be hagiography, i. e., the worshipful or idealized writing of history, not constructively and critically written history.
I’m arguing against the way I know we’ve always posited our understanding of the past. My quote from Yahn represents the way we’ve always chosen to see it. And, I think that there is more to the differences between these two great formers of our thinking than we’re comfortable thinking.
You say of Winebrenner, “It has to be said however-he did not exactly make the point for feetwashing as an ordinance in his sermon as effectively as what he needed to do in order to lay out practices for a denomination.”
I disagree.
Admittedly, Forney’s work was a theological treatise and Winebrenner’s was a sermon and, therefore, much less comprehensive. But, I have no problem with what Winebrenner wrote. I think it was perfectly adequate. And, in my opinion, Winebrenner’s sermon is much truer to the spirit of John 13 than is Forney’s little book.
As far as your whole paragraph, “The fact is, it took Forney to come along and drive home the need to practice this wonderful ordinance that we have, by bringing the logic (and philosophy) that he did to the argument. I for one believe that he did a bang-up job. He used Scripture, tradition, reason, and experience. When I came into the Churches of God, I was not at all sure about feet-washing as an ordinance. Forney (in my studying) has knocked it out of the park. Forney was good and he knew his stuff. And I do not believe that it is appropriate to say that he was all logic (modernistic) either. I am very (irrationally?) inspired when I read pgs. 133-34 of his work, (the hard copy-brownish one that you gave to me) “We are satisfied! We will cheerfully do what Jesus has said we ‘ought’ to do.” It is very easy to see why it is almost impossible (post-Forney) in the Churches of God not to practice feet-washing as an ordinance. Not because of his "modernity,” but rather, because, he just knew what he was talking about.”
I guess I will have to argue with you if you won’t argue with me. And, I know I’m on shaky ground here because I’m taking issue with We Believe. I’m making the point that I am a disciple of Winebrenner on this point, which places me at odds with our official position as a denomination.
My concern is that I believe Winebrenner is being true to John 13 and that Forney really misses the biblical import of John’s account by imposing on it theological categories of Forney’s own day.
And, my ultimate concern for the Churches of God is that the theological categories of Forney’s day are no longer the concern of the unsaved postmodern Americans to whom we need to teach the importance and significance of the act of Feet Washing. We have composed a very poished and impressive answer to a question that no unsaved person today is asking.
As far as “I for one would not be in favor of having any forums to revisit any Churches of God theology. It is good, and it is pure…” is concerned:
So you want to chisel We Believe in granite, eh?
As you may know, my dissertation was on the ordinance of Feet Washing in the CGGC. When I was defending it, one of the members of my committee asked me, “Bill, can you put the argument of your dissertation into one sentence?” I said, “Yes.” He asked, “What’s the sentence?” I said, “The understanding of Feet Washing in the Churches of God has evolved.” He said two words: “It’s evolv-ING.” And that part of the conversation was over. He’s right. All those hours of research and careful thought and I never did get it.
John Winebrenner was a pietist, a revivalist and, theologically speaking, a restorationist. The movement he built is founded on those realities. Winebrenner was not a dogmatist. He was not a composer of Creeds. In fact, he was an opposer of Creeds. Therefore, it is the nature of movements like ours that doctrine does grow. It certainly did in the years between the time Winebrenner asserted that Feet Washing symbolizes the humility of Jesus and the time that Forney countered that Feetwashing memorializes the humiliation of Jesus. And, if we’re going to be honest, we’ll admit that the essence of what we believe is still taking shape and probably always will. I join Winebrenner in the belief that only biblical truth is unchanging.
But, more than that, for Winebrenner it was always all about the unsaved person who needs Christ. The unsaved world is changing. Reggie McNeal makes the point that our culture today is more like the New Testament world that it is like life in American 30 years ago. He’s probably right. We have a continuing obligation to think through how we articulate to our world the unchanging glory of biblical Truth. (And, let me be clear to anyone who is confused by my ramblings. I do believe that biblical truth never changes. Nor does Jesus.)
As far as your comment: “We need to stop conforming to the culture like we do, and just do what Christ has commanded (set out the Word of God).”
Whoa Nellie Belle! (A little Roy Rogers Show lingo, there.)
I certainly am not in favor of conforming to the postmodern culture. What I’m in favor of is being relevant to it.
The forum that so many of us here support would not be for the purpose of accommodating cultural norms. It would be to seek to understand how to speak the one true Gospel as meaningfully as possible to the people around us who need to be redeemed by it. Nothing more. Nothing less.
My brother Bill,
Your quote:
"My concern is that I believe Winebrenner is being true to John 13 and that Forney really misses the biblical import of John’s account by imposing on it theological categories of Forney’s own day."
I will need some time to speak to this, because I want my remarks to be meaningful and thought out. I need to think about it and let it percolate in my head (maybe not such a good idea after all:). I will get back to you with a more thought out answer after a while. For now agreeing to disagree, I will offer this...
I am not at all sure that what Winebrenner and Forney advocate in their positions is all that far apart. Is there really a difference in humiliating yourself as Peter implies that Christ is doing in the remark "Lord, are YOU washing my feet?" and Phil 2:7 "but made himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men;" or in considering the virtue of Christ's humility as is suggested in Phil. 2:8 "He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death."
I wonder if we're not dealing with semantics here, Bill. Is a willingness to humiliate yourself or showing humility two completely different concepts? Maybe I'm just not seeing it because I've spent to much time up here in the hills. I wonder if all of this is just words that we are dealing with? Are these really issues that would keep a sincere seeker away from the Churches of God? Assuming that he or she is really serious about persuing a relationship with God, are not these some things that they will eventually develop a better understanding of themselves as time goes by? I guess I just really wonder about just how much God is dependent upon what "We Believe" to facilitate his salvation for mankind after all??
As I see it (hopefully I'm not reading my Bible heretically), God humiliated Himself by choosing to set aside His divine perogatives to come down here and spend some time with us and set us straight. If He had not done this we would all be enroute to hell. God is most holy; we are not. Thinking about the depths that God went to save us it seems to me stimulates love in us as well. We (as Winebrenner says) could not hope to efficiently cause any spiritual change in ourselves. God had to take the time to do it all by His lonesome (through His Son). I can see that as Forney says "humiliating Himself."
Another thing I ask for your help, I spent all of last night searching out Forney's book looking for the statement that He truly believes that feetwashing signifies Christ's "humiliation." Not finding it, could you quote me the page number where that is at? This is an issue I need to address in a future sermon.
I appreciate your willingness to dialogue with me on this. Hopefully the conversation will be productive for the both of us, but especially for me.
Ken Zitsch
Ken,
You ask, “Is there really a difference in humiliating yourself as Peter implies that Christ is doing in the remark "Lord, are YOU washing my feet?" and Phil 2:7 "but made himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men;" or in considering the virtue of Christ's humility as is suggested in Phil. 2:8 "He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death."”
There can be no question that the act of humiliation involves an attitude of humility. However, I don’t think that is the point here. We are really dealing with semantics here based on Forney’s choice of the word ‘humiliation’ to describe the incarnation of Christ in the context of the Ordinance of Feet Washing. When you use the word humiliation as Forney does you can substitute the word incarnation.
It was Forney’s contention that in instituting Feetwashing as an ordinance, Jesus was instructing us to observe a ritual that pointed to the incarnation of Christ as one of three important events in His earthly ministry--the other two being the Lord’s Supper, which memorializes the crucifixion and Baptism, which memorializes the resurrection.
These ideas were essential to the understanding of the significance of Feetwashing to Forney. They are absent from Winebrenner.
You ask the question: “Is a willingness to humiliate yourself or showing humility two completely different concepts?”
In the context of this conversation, yes. They are two distinctly different concepts.
You also ask, “Are these really issues that would keep a sincere seeker away from the Churches of God?”
That may be your best question in terms of the way I have framed the issue. You’re asking, “Is this really worth discussing?” You‘re asking if I‘m simply making a big deal out of something that doesn’t really matter.
Here’s why I think this is important.
There is an infectious radicalism about Winebrenner’s life, ministry and thought. He was not reserved and thorough and logical as Forney was. He was bold. He was audacious. He was, as Kern says, a reformer.
This radicalism about Winebrenner is something that the CGGC has that can be contagious. Winebrenner believed that Jesus taught His disciples to wash one another’s feet and that, in the end, is all that really matters. Jesus said, “You should wash one another’s feet. “ He said, “I have set you an example that you should do as I have done to you. “ You can muse to your heart’s content over the definition of an ordinance. But, when all is said and done, for Winebrenner, Jesus gave us a command and an example to follow. Winebrenner is saying, Our Lord told us to do it. As for me, I’m going to do it. Period.
I don’t think that the differences between Winebrenner and Forney will keep “a sincere seeker away from the Churches of God,” as you say.
But, the radical commitment to Jesus in Winebrenner can be contagious in a way the cold, clear, careful logic of Forney will never be. There is fire about radically obeying Jesus that comes off the page when I read Winebrenner. That fire is lacking when I read Forney. It’s the fire that might make Winebrenner attractive to an unsaved postmodern.
You say, “As I see it (hopefully I'm not reading my Bible heretically), God humiliated Himself by choosing to set aside His divine prerogatives to come down here and spend some time with us and set us straight.”
Amen. Preach it! I agree.
The question is, Did Jesus intend to create a ritual to point to His incarnation when He said, “I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you.” Forney says yes. Winebrenner says that Jesus intended to give us an example of His humility--that He came as one who serves (Winebrenner refers to Luke 22:27.) and he quotes: “"God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace to the humble. Humble yourselves therefore, under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you in due time" (1Pe 5:5, 6).” Interestingly, as far as I can tell, Winebrenner doesn’t refer to Philippians 2:5-11 even one time.
You say, “Another thing I ask for your help, I spent all of last night searching out Forney's book looking for the statement that He truly believes that feetwashing signifies Christ's "humiliation." Not finding it, could you quote me the page number where that is at? This is an issue I need to address in a future sermon.”
The best place to look is in The Philosophic Basis of the Ordinances:
“V. THE ESSENTIAL FACTS IN THE REDEMPTIVE MISSION AND SAVING WORK OF CHRIST.”
In that section Forney says among other things, “What is meant by the humiliation of Christ? We mean all that lowering, self-emptying, denuding of his eternal glory, that marvelous kenosis that fills up the terrible interregnum between the Throne and the empty Tomb of the risen Lord.”
Wow. Go away a little while and things get deep on me (well, deep to my brain, anyway).
RE: Brian, Ben, Dan, Phil, vieux, George and I aren't enmeshed in the intense postmodern struggle that defines your ministry. I won't speak for Tammie and Justin. Mike, I suspect, is truly Emergent, not Emerging.
I wouldn't say I am enmeshed in a postmodern struggle in the youth ministry at my church (which is of a more traditional bent and at which I am a youth leader) yet I can see the struggle growing and contend it will be an issue for more churches in rural areas faster than we think. Personally, I tend to fit the second stream (ministering with postmoderns). The best way to describe what I sense here can be found in a quote from Lesslie Newbigin's The Gospel in a Pluralist Society that say, "It has much more to do with intuition and
imagination – the intuition that there is a problem waiting to be tackled, a configuration of things waiting to be discerned, an orderliness not yet manifest but hidden and waiting to be discovered."
Though I can't speak intelligently to the post that started this conversation, I will say that a forum sounds like a wonderful idea ... for whatever that's worth.
Bill,
You said: "There is an infectious radicalism about Winebrenner’s life, ministry and thought. He was not reserved and thorough and logical as Forney was. He was bold. He was audacious."
The bottom line for me is that you have to have both (infectious radicalism AND logic). Particularly if you are a teacher. Passion and radicalism are good attributes to have (as obviously we have seen with the advent of the CGGC because of Winebrenner), but as has been born out providentially, we needed Forney too. Only God knows whether this denomination would have survived over the years were it not for the reason and rationalism of Forney.
You say: "Radical commitment to Jesus in Winebrenner can be contagious (to post-moderns) in a way the cold, clear, careful logic of Forney will never be."
Perhaps, but I'm not sure I am going to take that to the bank. I do not think of myself as being very far removed from the thinking of this generation, because of the upbringing and cultural influence that I had (as the preacher in Ecclesiastes says, "The is nothing new under the sun"). The skepticism of this generation stems from indifference (not necessarily theirs, but from all of us in general) It stems from not caring enough to try to understand and pursue what God has said. I would suggest (being the cold-hearted stoic that I am) when it is all said and done, in order to be effective in our ministry and successful from God's point of view, we have to show reason and logic in the things we believe and do. Why? For no other reason than that the world can never be able to say, "but you didn't tell us so."
You say "we should do it just because Jesus said so." I (having a enough of the skeptic in me) can also say, "I remain unconvinced." Where did Jesus tell you so? Why would He have imagined such a thing? What is the "logic of election" as Lesslie Newbigin would say? I would also suggest that the problems that the church has today in reaching out and being an effective communicator to post-moderns is NOT from the fact that as you say "the CGGC (or any other church) is content to recite the intellectual musings of the CGGCers from the turn of the last century and settle for that as truth." I would say that the problem is the exact opposite, harboring on the notion that we just do not know what what we are supposed to believe at all. Our theology is watered down. We do not live out what Jesus taught. We cannot percieve the mind of God in anything because we do not read our Bibles. People look at us as hypocrites "and of all men most miserable."
Truth matters! It matters more than we are willing to admit. Pilate asked "what is truth?" His condemnation is complete. Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the light. The beginning of the gospel is repentance. That is the terrible truth that the world does not want to hear and the church does not uphold today. The church is the vessel on this earth that is charged with passing "the truth" on. We are instead compromising and selling out to the culture in order to get the buildings full. Where are we doing that? Type "emerging church" into your browser and sit back and take in the heresy that is out there. The gospel is confused with love, peace, and believing what you want. It is all a matter of personal interpretation don't you know?? Take a couple of hours to see how complete the compromise is out there. If you prefer, you can go to websites such as theooze.com and find out what the emerging consensus is over the church's "orthodox position" on the trinity. There are those out there who would think that the attenders of the second Council at Constantinople were motivated either politically or by self-interest. We are just supposed to believe that God wasn't involved in the matters of His church at all. I read that over the years (in the continuing controversy over the numerous Bible versions) that it was said that we didn't need to keep 1 John 5:7 in our Bibles because it was some (rational and logical?) scribal gloss. They would say that we need to "get back to the pure unadulterated" word that the apostles wrote. Well it turns out that "scribal gloss" was just exactly what God intended in order to codify the doctrine of the trinity and make it known to this present unbelieving generation. We didn't need to look back and question; we needed to look forward and teach. Most of this generation can't even begin to talk about the trinity and what it means to our spiritual and material lives. We can't talk about doctrines like justification and sanctification (as Winebrenner and Forney so ably did). People have no hope of feeling secure in their salvation. People like Paul Crouch and Benny Hinn are out there taking advantage of the flock. That is sad.
Sorry, I admire John Winebrenner. I honor him as the founder of our denomination. He has and should have pride of place in that regard. But I will also believe that Forney's place in our history is secure. Should we "chisel 'We Believe' in stone?" You bet, Not that I don't believe that we are capable of doing better, but rather because I am frightened about what the alternative would be. When I die, bury me with the Bible, and "We Believe" in my cold, dead hands. That is what I believe, and those are the things that I will continue to teach others, so that they can gain some security and be able to measure growth in their lives. People need absolutes. Our society will not survive without them.
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Brent,
It has been a long time. Staying out of trouble I hope. I remember the time that we spent together in seminary with fondness. All of you if you're out there (the class of 1999), You were "iron sharpening iron".
Yes, SOME sarcasm was there in what I posted, but, not entirely my friend. Hear this and hear it as humble as I can say it. I hope I will seem to be speaking in an understanding and peaceful (not confrontational) way. It is hard to communicate clearly online. If you want to call me, I would most certainly welcome the call.
I am most certainly not afraid of how God could help us to reformulate what "We Believe" in a way that better communicates to unbelievers, if there is a way to do that. Woe to us if we are an obstacle in anybody's way.
Perhaps there are things that we can SAY and DO in a better way as a church. Only God knows. I am just as open to positive and constructive change as the next person (see the type described in Jeremiah 1:9-10).
I would be opposed however to reformulating any doctrine, mainly because I do not believe that this generation is dedicated to understanding their Bible well enough to undertake such a project. I say that with regard to both Pastors and Laity (including myself) There is just too much biblical ignorance and heresy out there.
I am just one person, and I understand that. But Brent, I have already dealt with my rationale for these things earlier in my posts to this blog. Maybe I babble at times, but I try very hard to be understood and loving. There is really no need to rehash them here. I am not going to set up any straw men or beat the ground.
I do not intend to get confrontational or challenging the faith of anyone. Christ died for me and that compels me to treat everybody with respect. My goal is that we all be at peace and experience the joy of the Lord. Not saying that this is the case with you, but I refuse to put myself in a position where I am seen to be on the defensive. God does not need me to defend Him. The burden of proof for change is on those who would posit the changes.
I have seen the tactics that some would use to try and make "conservatives" look bad. It is a strategy to make them look like an idiot and trip over their words. I would hope you would not think to do that. By the way, I am very conservative. I am also a fairly well educated person, and I know that you are too. I also remember you as being just as conservative as me. So, we do not need to argue about these things.
When the time comes I will bring my Bible to any conversation that any of us want to have. I am a quiet and subdued person about most things, but doctrine that I know to be the orthodox position of the historic church is another matter. Changes need to pass the orthodox muster. As we know from seminary, you cannot have orthopraxis without orthodoxy. Our practices do reflect what "We Believe." The two go hand in hand. orthodoxy however (common-sensically) comes before orthopraxy. For biblical proof of that, see the form of Paul's letters.
Questions from me would include in any forum for change: How do these proposed changes take into account the whole council of Scripture? Where does it take into account what we believe on the need for regeneration? Are we about to put any potential roadblocks to those setting out on the sanctified life? Where does it take into account what we believe about the ordinances (historically). How does it affect the biblical mandate with regard to the sexes and the family? How does what we would want to do account for what Winebrenner called "man's depraved moral nature." Are we taking anything for granted? Do ANY changes subtract from the completed work of Christ? How would these things fit in with what we believe post-salvation about "the new and spiritual man?" Are we adding to or taking away from canonical Scripture (yes, there was a canon) Is everybody that once experiences salvation bound to "the moral law of God?"
Once again, I am only one, and it is certainly not my say, and I do not overrate my importance. I am nobody but a saved one in the Lord. But, I will fight compromise with every ounce of my strength. I will not run away. I have given almost twelve years of my life to this wonderful CGGC because I see what "We Believe" as biblically sound. I will not just throw that out.
There is a difference between "saying things better and more clearly" and changing doctrine just to tickle people's fancy. If it is just form we are talking about, then we can have those discussions here on this blog. But a forum? Rethinking what Galatians 1:8 means with regard to us (a potential issue raised in an earlier post)? Our doctrine in the CGGC is just fine. We, as pastors, when we were ordained, made commitments we are bound to keep. Church leaders give too much ground in trying not to offend people. There comes a time and a place where we must draw the line and just say "no".
So for Christ's sake, by all means if we can do it better, then let's dialogue and do; but for subjectivity's sake and making sinners feel better, I will not emphasize anything to them except their need to save themselves from this present sinful generation. We have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. The world needs to repent and listen to the wisdom of God in the gospel. They need to be saved. There is none righteous, no not one. We do not need to "take a five year moratorium on talking about homosexualty. We do not need to rethink the Doctrine of the Trinity that the church (might have?) mistakely formulated at the Council at Constantinople. We do not need to rethink the doctrine of hell. We do not need to be unsure about the destiny of people that live in Muslim or Hinduu cultures. It is not I that says this, but the Lord. It is also not me making up those heresies, the leaders of the emerging church did. (browse: emerging church, prepare to spend a few hours) The basics of the faith have not changed over the millenia, and I do not see them changing in the future. I know the tendency is to say "but, that isn't us! (the emerging church)" But, my question is then, "What are you then (the emerging CGGC) Where are you emerging from? Why do we need to think that anybody needed to emerge from anywhere? I (as well as you and others), WE are all the church. We are the body of Christ, and Christ is God most holy. He has worked in us over the years. He has been doing some pretty striking things in us. What makes us think that we need to make drastic changes now? Is what "We Believe" really keeping people away? or, is it the way that we live it out (only indulging in the "imagination of the thoughts of our heart")? The biggest question of all is: Where is the pattern in Scripture for such a movement? What about the fathers of the first 800 years of the church? How does this honor the memory of our founder and the "cloud of witnesses" that have been ministering here for about 170-180 years?
To much blathering, time to go...
God's blessings be with you.
Ken Zitsch
Ken,
I want to agree with you on the WE BELIEVE. Yes some things could be clearer. It is a good biblically sound work. It's value is that it is a statement of our understanding of scripture. It all goes back to scripture. I listen often to what is said here. Much is spoken of the lastest ideas and authors. I am thankful for that it helps me understand. I am more interested in what scripture says than men. Adjust the WE BELIEVE,yes. But scrap it and start over as some of the conversation seems to indicate, NO.
Phil,
Amen
You said it better in a few sentences what it took me two hours to type. Those are precisely my sentiments. You said it well. Thank you for sharing God's wisdom.
Pastor Ken Zitsch
Well, as nice as Ken said it, he said that we are too Biblically ignorant to do a We Believe rewrite. While I'm not offended (he said it so nicely), I don't agree. There is for some reason a belief that emerging type pastors don't know their Bibles. I would argue they know them better.
To answer the question, "Emerging from what?" For me, it would be emerging from a fortress attitude to a more offensive posture. It would be to have a more global view of Christianity. We aren't the center of Christianity any more. We would be a more obvious blessing to the nations. It would be stronger on discipleship than I'm currently witnessing. I'm traveling to Haiti next week, on one hand to bless and on the other to learn.
Ken said something about not putting a 5 year moratorium on talk about homosexuality. Ken, don't confuse emerging with liberalism. There may be some overlap, but they are not the same.
Phil said, "Don't throw out what we have and start over." I would agree. That would be very arrogant and very foolish.
Ken also said, "We do not need to rethink the Doctrine of the Trinity that the church (might have?) mistakely formulated at the Council at Constantinople. We do not need to rethink the doctrine of hell. We do not need to be unsure about the destiny of people that live in Muslim or Hindu cultures. It is not I that says this, but the Lord."
Whoa! Ken, I assume you mean that the Bible says this and that you are taking a Pauline quote a little too far! And you certainly talking about interpretations rather than clear Biblical texts.
These are interesting questions. Actually I do think we need to rethink our doctrine of the trinity. It is far too weak. The trinity is a foundation for all of Christianity and as I've heard it defined, it lacks for depth and power. I would not throw it out. I would give it what Forney attempted to give to Feetwashing. We have been weak on the Holy Spirit. We have been weak on defending Christ as God. Not that we doubt He is God, but our depth of understanding is terribly shallow.
As for the doctrine of hell, much of our current popular belief is based on Dante's inferno and not on Scripture. Hell is certainly the destination of those without Christ. But do we understand how scary it really is? I don't mean to add more flames to hell, but to accentuate the absence of God.
As for the destiny of Muslim and Hindu people... That can wait another day as I'm out of time. But it at least begs the question for me, is there a Christian culture, which is really at most less than 200 years old, that needs to be emerged from. And the way to emerge from it isn't to water it down, but to go back to the very creeds Ken spoke of and to renew the depth of Christianity.
One of the guiding principles for my life is this "If one person calls me a donkey I can ignore it. If two people call me a donkey I should start looking for a saddle". Brothers and sisters, the roar outside may well be the sound of a lot of hurting people yelling donkey.
I think those of us on this blog know that. So does Bob Roberts. I just started reading "Transformation". His first chapter echos much of what has been discussed on this posting. i.e "We have become lost in modernity" p. 22.
As I look at it, the very format of "We Believe" may be symbolic of that. It is not a story. It is a list. Did we ever think about a doctrinal statement as our story?
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Brian,
I appreciate your passion. Your thoughts are interesting to me and they deserve some interaction and response (constructive of course). I have to get away from this blog however for a couple of days. I need to finish tonight's Bible study and finalize Sundays's sermon. A couple of birthdays coming up and stuff. I will be back with a response to these things in a couple of days.
Ken Z.
Friends,
Whoa! What a hornet's nest! I guess there really is love for truth in the Body of Christ.
I've got a little too much real life going on. So, this post is a response to the third to last of Ken's. I may never catch up.
------------------------
Ken,
Re: “The church is the vessel on this earth that is charged with passing "the truth" on. We are instead compromising and selling out to the culture in order to get the buildings full. Where are we doing that? Type "emerging church" into your browser and sit back and take in the heresy that is out there.”
Oivey! (Isaiah 6:5)
While I’ll be the first to acknowledge that some in the extreme--especially those in Emergent Village--have been enculturated by postmodernism, the reality is that the people who are most guilty of compromising with culture are those who have become enmeshed with modern culture and who insist on snuggling under the familiar covers of modernism.
While modernism may be what you are familiar with and it may be comfortable to you, it is much more secular than postmodernism. And, to suggest that we should entrench ourselves in modern ways is to reject the Gospel.
Ken, I don’t think you could be more wrong about this. It’s traditional modernists in the church who reject the emerging church out of hand who are selling out, who compromise--often in order to avoid the reality that the world is no longer asking the questions they have gotten so good at answering.
Truth really does matter and it is in the emerging church that you will find people who are listening to the spirit, who are struggling not to be dominated by outdated traditions and who are not content with old answers to no longer asked questions.
Re: “The gospel is confused with love, peace, and believing what you want.”
Ouch!
Now c’mon, Ken. On this blog you can read the passions of Brian Miller and Ben Tobias, Dan Horwedel, Brent Sleasman and Lance Finley, Doug Molgaard, Lew Button and me, among others. Which ones of us are guilty of the charge: “The gospel is confused with love, peace, and believing what you want.
Which of us do you want to correct?
Re; “Take a couple of hours to see how complete the compromise is out there.
”
Before you do that, perhaps you should take a gander at the love for the Lord and the passion for His Truth in here. Take your straw man out to your trash can and get rid of it.
You have hit an exposed nerve in me, Ken. You’ve forced me on a well used soap box. I’ve listened to this kind of criticism of the emerging church too often and when I hear it, I don’t think of Brian McLaren or Tony Jones. I think of my friends. Brian. Dan. Brent. Ben. Lew. Doug. And, Lance. I take what you’ve said personally as an unfounded attack on them.
THEY are the emerging church. And they are not guilty of your accusation!
Repent, brother, repent.
Re: “I admire John Winebrenner. I honor him as the founder of our denomination. He has and should have pride of place in that regard. But I will also believe that Forney's place in our history is secure.”
Me too. My question is whether or not Forney deserves so dominant a place in our present. My question is not based in a lack of respect for him. It is founded in my sense that the unsaved culture is no longer asking questions he can help us answer.
Re: “Should we "chisel 'We Believe' in stone?" You bet, Not that I don't believe that we are capable of doing better, but rather because I am frightened about what the alternative would be.”
I’ve already read my friend Brent’s comment on this. Amen, Brent. Our Lord is still involved in our world. He still loves it. If He could guide the writers of We Believe, he is still probably able to assist us in articulating unchanging truth to this lost generation.
Bill,
I just happened to look before I went offline. The above post that I made stands with regard to this post you just made. Gotta do other things brother.
ONE thing that I want to say before I disappear into oblivion for a few days is this: It was not I that directed my comments to anybody on this blog in particular, it was you. You took my comments and directed them against other people. This is not criticizing or condemning sincere brothers for me. My comments are and will continue to be directed to the church in general. I am just a voice in the overall church. If that hurts your feelings, well, there is nothing I can do about that. I speak in love and a desire for the Body to grow. I do not need to repent for anything except the things that I do (which is more than enough). You need to keep this honest, or you need to go back and reread and come to a better understanding on what was being said. If you want to be seen as a champion for someone, that is fine, Go for it. But, please don't try to do it on my back. That is all I have to say about this (as Forrest Gump would say).
Finally, if there is a straw man out there for anybody that needs to be put away, it is this issue of "modernity" that I see that is continually being beaten into the ground. Me thinks that the problem that THIS PRESENT GENERATION (see Matthew 11:16-19) (see: no names) has, is not so much with modernity, or that we think we are donkeys; it is with AUTHORITY. Outsiders and unbelievers are not refusing to come to church because of the fact that there might be us "old fashioned fuddy-duds" out there who presume to have to many answers for their questions, they are not coming to church because they are seeing more and more a group of people behind the pulpits and in the pews who don't have the slightest idea of what they are talking about. I know this from my own experience. Remember Bill, I had lived and worked for eighteen years in the world before I went into ministry. Is this harsh of me to say? Then prove me wrong. There is not any reason for any unbeliever to think that they can come into church and find any answers at all. The church in general has either thrown up the not welcome sign (fundamentalism), or has conformed to the culture entirely and has made itself irrelevant to them (liberalism). They cannot see that there is any benefit between living the Christian life or the way that they are living now. Why waste time going to church on a Sunday morning, when you can get all the God you need on the golf course. All of this has happened not because of "modernity," It has happened because the church does not have the slightest idea anymore of what the Bible says. It is strange to me that the only ones that talk about "modernity" is theologians and Pastors or others who have had a little education. Go out and take a poll with the common folks (brothers), and they will tell you that the problem in the church has nothing to do with "modernity". It is that they do not understand what the Bible says, and that their preacher does not seem to make any sense. He tells us what to do, but He does not give us guidance on how to do it. This generation (whether pastors, or Laity, or ME) has not read their Bible. Most of us smarties an not relate to them at all. It is THEOLOGICAL and HYPOCRITICAL, it is not modernical.
As James says, "If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world (vv. 26-27). The Old Testament sums this up in two ways, RIGHTEOUSNESS and JUSTICE. These are the areas that the church has problems in, not because any of us presume to have to many answers. Quite frankly, Bill, we do not even begin to have enough.
And My faith does not make me "comfortable". Living the Christian life is harder than the dickens. In the end however, it is more than a battle worth fighting. I will not give up the fight just because we have a generation (of religiously motivated suburbanites)that wants to seek God in their own way. I am proud to be a part of the "orthodox church", and yes we have our warts, but we are still the body of Christ. And as our Lord and Savior told us in Matthew 16:18, "The gates of Hell shall not prevail against us."
Just gotta go for now...
God's blessing on ya
Ken Zitsch
Gang,
Re Ken‘s: “I would be opposed however to reformulating any doctrine, mainly because I do not believe that this generation is dedicated to understanding their Bible well enough to undertake such a project.”
I can see that you’d think this, Ken.
However. . .
. . .perhaps it would be helpful if the ol’ timer’d give little historical perspective here. The first edition of We Believe was written in the late 1970s and was approved in General Conference sessions in 1980. According to its introduction, “It is the product of many persons. It has received the invaluable attention of four Consultations on Doctrine. (emphasis mine) It has been written, edited, evaluated, and rewritten by many faithful students of the Word drawn from all areas of the Churches of God.”
In the 1970s, at the time We Believe was written, the Churches of God was in the midst of a theological struggle that had been raging for decades. The struggle centered around the seminary‘s faculty and what it was teaching. At the time, it was dominated by a faculty generally recognized by most pastors and members of the laity as being off-the-charts liberal.
The battle against liberalism was settled shortly before the publication of We Believe with the selection of George Weaver as President of Winebrenner Seminary in 1978. Weaver’s presidency proved to be a final victory for the opponents of liberalism. Nevertheless, it took several years for the seminary to be transformed.
The orthodoxy of this generation can’t be compared that of the generation which produced We Believe for exactly the opposite reason than you may think. If either generation is worthy considering issues of orthodoxy it certainly is not that one. This one is far better qualified.
Guys, I woke up in the middle of the night with thise things on my mind. I have to get them out while they are still cogent.
Bill,
Just asking a question here, how is it that we should come to the conclusion that "The orthodoxy of this generation can’t be compared that of the generation which produced We Believe", by virtue of the fact that the leanings of our seminary were liberal at that time? There is no question that in fact the seminary was like that at that time, but I'm not really sure of how that relates to the publication of "We Believe." Just a thought here... if that generation was able to produce something as sound as "We Believe", in spite of the fact that it's leaders were seemingly liberal, I might be tempted to hold to the position that it is something that we might want to avoid just prematurely casting away. It was forged in the midst of a difficult time. It seems to me like that's when human beings are at their best, when difficulties arise. Just another take on that situation.
It needs to be said in the interest of full disclosure, if I had been around at that time, I would have had a problem with the credentials of some of those contributing to it. But, all of this is after the fact. The fact is that God used these people. I don't have a "We Believe" here in my office, because I've given them all out. I do have the study guide here Bill, and I got to tell you, it is a good work. I do not see that it is of any difference what culture you are from, The questions that it forces you to ask are relevant questions for anybody to ask, i.e. We Believe-in God; 6. Why is it important to believe that God the Father and Jesus the Son are one? That God the Father and the Holy Spirit are one? also: We Believe-in the Bible; 2. Why is it important to believe that the Bible is:
(a) inspired (2 Timothy 3:16-17)
(b) an infallible authority (1 Corinthians 2:12-13)
(c) the Word of God (Hebrews 4:12)
(d) our only rule of faith and practice (Romans 10:17; Ephesians 6:17)
Incidently: Anybody that is reading this would be free to answer this, What is it about those two articles that I just put forth that you would think to be appropriate to change to better reach this post-modern generation? I'm also curious to know: How would you do it?
Bill, I love you brother, and it seems like I'm picking on you, and I gotta say: I hate myself for doing it. I remember you as the very first contact that I had with the CGGC. You talked to a very confused person on the phone out there in CO. But where are you coming from here? I gotta tell you, we all can question things when we have the intelligence to do so, and you certainly have the intelligence; but I think there is an overriding question here. "Ought you to be doing so?" You don't have to answer that to me of course, just something for you to think about.
You also said: "My question is whether or not Forney deserves so dominant a place in our present. My question is not based in a lack of respect for him. It is founded in my sense that the unsaved culture is no longer asking questions he can help us answer."
Do you really believe that Bill? If so, is it really appropriate for you to say so? Once again: Just because we can ask the questions, does it really mean that we should? Is it as appropriate as you think it is? Forney gave his life to this denomination. Isn't there a "post-modern" adage that history tends to be written according to the values of those who write it? Why are you so sure that you're not doing that here?
-----------------------------------
Brian:
I appreciate your point of view, but in the spirit of post-modernism, I would apreciate you allowing me to challenge some of your views.
You said,
"Well, as nice as Ken said it, he said that we are too Biblically ignorant to do a We Believe rewrite. While I'm not offended (he said it so nicely), I don't agree. There is for some reason a belief that emerging type pastors don't know their Bibles. I would argue they know them better."
Brian, I didn't say that. We need to be honest on this blog here. One of the things that I've noticed about these types of conversations is that it is alright as long as your asking question, but "heavens to Betsy" if you start questioning any assertations. Maybe I should apologize for over-generalizing about the capabilities of this generation (all right I will), but I think it not unreasonable for you to accept the premise we need to be careful not to be thinking more of ourselves than we ought.
Here is what I said:
I would be opposed however to reformulating any doctrine, mainly because I do not believe that this generation is dedicated to understanding their Bible well enough to undertake such a project. I say that with regard to both Pastors and Laity (including myself) There is just too much biblical ignorance and heresy out there.
Notice a couple of things: First I made no reference at all to post-modern Pastors. Second (and most important), I included myself as potentially culpable in all of this.
I don't know you from Moses Brian. I would like to, you seem to be a person that I could really get into having a cup of cappucino with and talking to. I believe that you have some insights that could be beneficial to me. Let's keep our converstation on that level. I consider you just as capable as me (if nt more).
You say:
"Ken, don't confuse emerging with liberalism. There may be some overlap, but they are not the same."
Now, I want to be careful here to follow your recommendation and isolate emerging from liberalism. I want to leave intact the premise that your intentions are pure.
Let me deal with this in an analogy if you'll permit:
You have children, I'm sure (maybe not). Assuming that you do, what would be your reaction if your son came home and told you this: Dad, I'm hanging with some shady characters in the school. Now, I don't want you to be bothered, I want you to know that whatever shenanagans that they might pull, I'm just hanging with them. You don't need to worry Pop's, I'm gonna stay pure.
Maybe you would, if you really trust your kid. But on the other hand, there is no way that you can convince me that you wouldn't be concerned. I'd even be willing to suggest: you'll be up waiting at that door till he got home.
Here is my concern: The guys that you read from are out there spouting heretical things. Whether you believe that or not is of no consequence. The fact is I (and I know I am not alone), and many others do. Can you begin to understand why we might be concerned?
You said:
"To answer the question, "Emerging from what?" For me, it would be emerging from a fortress attitude to a more offensive posture. It would be to have a more global view of Christianity. We aren't the center of Christianity any more. We would be a more obvious blessing to the nations. It would be stronger on discipleship than I'm currently witnessing. I'm traveling to Haiti next week, on one hand to bless and on the other to learn."
Couple of points here:
I would be interested to know how you would document your assertation that there is a "fortress attitude" in the church. I have a sense that is a rumor that you have heard. Actually something along those lines is posited everytime that someone wants to criticize what the orthodox church has been doing. It always comes back to this: "It has just got to change because it hasn't been very good." Why should we believe that Brian, and more importantly, how would you truly know such a thing? This is God's church. Jesus Christ is and has been at work here. Has He accomplished nothing in the past 2000 or so years? Why is anybody in the emerging church so sure that He is not accomplishing anything now? Just questions, you don't have to pay any attention to me if you wish, but I believe the questions are valid.
Your other assertation: "We aren't the center of Christianity any more. We would be a more obvious blessing to the nations."
Who thinks that is the case Brian, I don't. You might be surprised to know that I am in complete agreement with a book that I read. It is by Mark Noll/Nathan Hatch/George Marsden: "The Search for Christian America." Let me read you one of the arguments of their book:
"We feel that a careful study of the facts of history shows that early America does not deserve to be considered uniquely, distinctly, or even predominantly Christian."
You see Brian, not all of us are smitten by James Dobson, or D James Kennedy (God rest His soul). We are independent thinkers. There is no question that America has considered itself inextricably (and mistakenly) linked with Christianity. The church has in some cases perpetuated this. But those are not everybody, and once again it would posit that it is not as big a problem as you think. Those of us who are immersed in our Bibles know exactly how to counter this kind of thinking.
You said:
"Ken also said, 'We do not need to rethink the Doctrine of the Trinity that the church (might have?) mistakely formulated at the Council at Constantinople. We do not need to rethink the doctrine of hell. We do not need to be unsure about the destiny of people that live in Muslim or Hindu cultures. It is not I that says this, but the Lord.'"
Whoa! Ken, I assume you mean that the Bible says this and that you are taking a Pauline quote a little too far! And you certainly talking about interpretations rather than clear Biblical texts.
These are interesting questions. Actually I do think we need to rethink our doctrine of the trinity. It is far too weak. The trinity is a foundation for all of Christianity and as I've heard it defined, it lacks for depth and power. I would not throw it out. I would give it what Forney attempted to give to Feetwashing. We have been weak on the Holy Spirit. We have been weak on defending Christ as God. Not that we doubt He is God, but our depth of understanding is terribly shallow."
I'll stop there for a second. A couple of things: About the Trinity: this debate reminds me of the Scripture where Moses asks God to give him a name so that he can go back and ask the children of Israel, "Who shall I tell them that sent me?"
What did God say? "I AM who I AM" (capitalized out of reverence). Tell them Moses, "I AM has sent me." Hmmm now, how does that relate to what we are talking about here?
I am inclined to believe that it is obvious. Who are we to question God? Accepting the fact (as you seem to) that the Triune God is a done deal, what would make us think that we have the place to rethink anything about God? God is, and He has always been. He is who He is and we as the church has but one alternative, that is to love and embrace Him.
You say our doctrine "lacks for strength and power." How would you strengthen it Brian? What attributes would we need to add to God that would make Him all that He needs to be. I'm glad to hear that you wouldn't throw the doctrine out. Yeah, I know brother, those are just words. But we really need to watch what we say, don't you think? We are men, He Is God.
Your premises that We have been weak on the Holy Spirit, and we have been weak on defending Christ as God. I just don't see that Brian. I have never been to any of our churches (nor anybody else's) where they don't call out to the Holy Spirit every worship Sunday. I do not think that there are too many people who don't understand that it is the Holy Spirit who counsels us, guiding us in life, and leading us into the presence of God. Where would you want to go from there?
Concerning the other statement you made about Christ:
I said above in a post to Brent:
"WE are all the church. We are the body of Christ, and Christ is God most holy."
I know that Christ is God Brian. And I am not the brightest light on the block. May I suggest that once again you are reacting to rumors. Maybe those are things that you picked up from something that you read. My real concern for you as a brother might be that you are not critically evaluating the writing and sayings of the people that you are hanging with. Nothing about you, but where do they get their authority? Are these things really a serious problem in the orthodox church? I'm not so sure. God is working in His Church by the Holy Spirit, and He is conforming us to the image of Christ. We are backwoodsy up here at Wallaceton, Brian, but WE all know that. Could it be that it is not so much of a problem after all?
You said:
"As for the doctrine of hell, much of our current popular belief is based on Dante's inferno and not on Scripture. Hell is certainly the destination of those without Christ. But do we understand how scary it really is? I don't mean to add more flames to hell, but to accentuate the absence of God."
Hmmm, once again, your assertation about Dante's inferno, I would wonder how you would document that. Maybe there are a few Bible thumpers out there who are putting everybody in hell, but I would be inclined to think that they are far from a majority. My big question to you is Brian: "Why does it matter?"
Whether Hell is like Dante's inferno or not is of no consequence is it? Here's the thing if you'll permit: It may well be that if an unbeliever doesn't get saved, he or she is going to get out there and what they find might make them wish for Dante's inferno. Let us not seek to minimize hell. However you might picture it, the bottom line is, it is ageless torment. It is an Ionian fire. Ages upon ages of torment and despair. I would suggest that we concentrate our efforts toward keeping people from going there. The fact is, we don't know anything about it, so let's stop speculating about it. I wouldn't want anybody to burn (metaphorically speaking). I want them to receive the gift of life.
You said:
"As for the destiny of Muslim and Hindu people... That can wait another day as I'm out of time. But it at least begs the question for me, is there a Christian culture, which is really at most less than 200 years old, that needs to be emerged from. And the way to emerge from it isn't to water it down, but to go back to the very creeds Ken spoke of and to renew the depth of Christianity."
You didn't elaborate, but for what it is worth, I will offer this: Paul said "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the Life, no one comes unto the Father except through me. I am of the belief that those two verse alone should end any arguments. But I will add this (just my two cents): Many people frame the argument that therr are certainly people out there who have never heard the gospel. How could God do it to them? Oh poor them. On the other hand Brian, I would say, " O Poor God." It is not about us, it is about Him. He has set the message of salvation forth for all the world to see. The fact is that many cultures have rejected (and continue to reject) the good news of God. Brian, consider the war in Iraq today. Whatever you might think of its merits, the fact is that these people have been given a wonderful opportunity for change. They are declining it. Now we can make all kinds of arguments as to whether their culture permits that. But it is irrelevant. It is their CHOICE to stay where they are. It is the same with the Gospel. It is God's good will that we all be saved, but there are some cultures, and some people groups that absolutely will refuse to embrace Him. It is their CHOICE. God has not tempted anyone beyond what they are able. We have just got to believe that by faith. We need to get out of the business of making excuses for God. He, as the Creator of the universe, as the creator of you and I, Brian, He knows what He needs to do. And He will do it, whether we agree with Him or not.
Brian, maybe what all of this proves is that we are not so far apart, you and I. But what we really need to sit down and consider is "How urgent is really the need for change?" I posit that one of the biggest problems that we have in the church today is that people don't read their Bible. If they would only do that, we could do so much. I doctrine change a real necessity? Or is it changing the way people think?
Just questions that one emerging skeptic has.
Pastor Ken Zitsch
Gang,
This again is not to Ken's most recent.
Ken,
Re: “ONE thing that I want to say before I disappear into oblivion for a few days is this: It was not I that directed my comments to anybody on this blog in particular, it was you. You took my comments and directed them against other people. This is not criticizing or condemning sincere brothers for me.”
Ken, my friend, sorry for jumping down your throat. But, I always make this point as forcefully as I can. And I always will.
This discussion was framed solely within the context of the CGGC. It had to do with Winebrenner and Forney and how the people in the CGGC alone are impacted by their influence.
In the context of this strictly CGGC discussion, when you say things like, “The gospel is confused with love, peace, and believing what you want,” to whom could you have been referring if not CGGC people like Brian and Brent, etc.?
I do know what you intended. And, honestly, I share your concerns about the heterodoxy of many on the emerging side of the issue. I am calling on you to realize what you were saying UN-intentionally--in the specific context of this discussion.
This may seem like an insignificant point to you. But, it’s something I will never let go. I jumped on my very good friend George Jensen a few months ago for the same reason so you are in good company. This is a big deal to me.
I tire of seeing very good friends in the CGGC and outside of it who have a passion for the salvation of the unsaved of the postmodern culture being tainted by association with the extremes in the emerging community. I’ve been involved in the conversations in CGGC circles. From my experience you are unjustified in suggesting that, “The gospel is confused with love, peace, and believing what you want,” has meaning in the context of a discussion of the emerging church in the CGGC.
I know you didn’t intend to impugn the emerging church people in the CGGC. But, you did.
Now, if you want to enter your own topic highlighting the dangers of the extremes in the Emerging Church, fine. You’ll probably find me agreeing with you. But, if you should associate those extremes with the people who participate on this blog I‘ll jump right down your throat again. Of course, if you can demonstrate the heterodoxy of Brian or Ben or Brent or Dan or one of the others, I’ll be interested to read what you write.
bill
Ken,
“Just asking a question here, how is it that we should come to the conclusion that "The orthodoxy of this generation can’t be compared that of the generation which produced We Believe", by virtue of the fact that the leanings of our seminary were liberal at that time? There is no question that in fact the seminary was like that at that time, but I'm not really sure of how that relates to the publication of "We Believe."”
Think about how profoundly your own seminary education formed you as a person, as a pastor and as a theologian.
In those days, several decades of our pastors were just as profoundly formed by their Winebrenner education as you have been by yours. The theology prof at Winebrenner during most of those years was an advocate of Death of God theology. What kind of belief system do you suppose our newly trained pastors brought into our congregations as a result of their training for ministry? Why kinds of sermons do you think their people were hearing? How can you suggest that the people of this generation are less prepared to address the issue of truth?
“Just a thought here... if that generation was able to produce something as sound as "We Believe", in spite of the fact that it's leaders were seemingly liberal, I might be tempted to hold to the position that it is something that we might want to avoid just prematurely casting away.”
“Prematurely?”
Two comments:
1. Reggie McNeal suggests that our culture today resembles that of the New Testament era more closely than it does our culture of 30 years ago. As a historian, I essentially agree. So, what’s premature?
2. You need to answer for me how you honestly believe that people like Ed Rosenberry and Don Dennison and Lance Finley and our other leaders are less up to the task of addressing the question of truth than were of the people of the We Believe generation. (And, I know that you didn’t intend to say that these particular people are inferior to the task, but they are the people you were mentioning by inference when you said what you said about our generation’s lack Bible knowledge. Who else do you suppose would lead such an effort? Beware of making such broad statements.)
“Casting (it) away?”
Let me be clear. I am interested in a conversation on our beliefs. I’m not calling us to cast anything away.
“Bill, I love you brother, and it seems like I'm picking on you, and I gotta say: I hate myself for doing it. I remember you as the very first contact that I had with the CGGC. You talked to a very confused person on the phone out there in CO. But where are you coming from here?”
Ken, I started this discussion out of a concern that our proclamation of eternal truth is old and tired and lifeless.
I started it with the conviction that unsaved people are asking a different set of questions than they were asking a few decades ago and that we should give thought to how we proclaim truth in a meaningful way.
I had in mind Paul’s view of his own ministry that he articulated: “I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some.”
I began it with a belief system that resembles what John Winebrenner preached more than what We Believe affirms. I strongly believe that we have preserved, in a fashion, the letter of the beliefs upon which our movement was founded but have gradually cast its intellectual spirit aside. I believe that if Winebrenner were here today, he might have trouble receiving credentials from the Conference you and I are in. He certainly is heterodox in his belief about what an ordinance is and on what Feet Washing signifies.
And, I started believing that most CGGCers don’t realize how much what we believe has really changed.
“You also said: "My question is whether or not Forney deserves so dominant a place in our present. My question is not based in a lack of respect for him. It is founded in my sense that the unsaved culture is no longer asking questions he can help us answer."
Do you really believe that Bill? If so, is it really appropriate for you to say so? Once again: Just because we can ask the questions, does it really mean that we should? Is it as appropriate as you think it is? Forney gave his life to this denomination. Isn't there a "post-modern" adage that history tends to be written according to the values of those who write it? Why are you so sure that you're not doing that here?”
If I wasn’t calling us back to Winebrenner, I’d probably just leave rather than bringing this up. But, I am calling us back to our roots, not calling us into some murky unmapped postmodern future.
Forney did give his life to this work. But, before he did, Winebrenner gave his.
I believe that my loyalty to the CGGC is very profoundly rooted in what we really are. I certainly don’t worship John Winebrenner. But, I happen to agree with him theologically more than I agree with the way things are now among us.
Hi Ken,
Hey good dialogue. I'm not very good at confrontation, so thanks for making it civil.
You said,
"Brian, I didn't say that," referring to saying you thought the CGGC was too Biblically ignorant to rewrite We Believe.
You did say that, and then you said it again in this post. It was in fact one place I did not over-generalize. It was a very specific statement and I disagree with it.
Here is your most recent quote: "There is just too much biblical ignorance and heresy out there."
And no including yourself as ignorant really doesn't make me feel any better.
You said: "I don't know you from Moses Brian. I would like to, you seem to be a person that I could really get into having a cup of cappucino with and talking to."
Oh I do like cappuccino, or rather a latte. I am nothing like Moses. I've never killed anyone. Perhaps you are reacting to rumors.
You gave this analogy (I won't repeat it all): "You have children, I'm sure (maybe not)."
I do have children. But this is a poor analogy. We aren't children. I don't hang out with people who are pulling religious "shenanigans." You are not my dad. You are my brother. This is a poor analogy.
You said: "Here is my concern: The guys that you read from are out there spouting heretical things."
Alright, I'll bite, but remember I'm leaving the country Sunday for a week, so don't take my absence as anything other than my absence.
Who am I reading and what are they saying that is heretical?
You said: "I would be interested to know how you would document your assertation that there is a "fortress attitude" in the church. I have a sense that is a rumor that you have heard."
You are right that this is a generalization, and in many ways, I find this not to be true. But I have run into it personally in several ways. I'll speak to this near the end of my comments.
You said:
"Actually something along those lines is posited everytime that someone wants to criticize what the orthodox church has been doing."
You probably didn't mean orthodox as Orthodox, but the question remains, "Why aren't we Catholic? Why aren't we Orthodox? Why are we Reformed? Because we thought it wasn't right, and that adjustments had to be made. They were not thrilled when we made the adjustments. Winebrenner wasn't popular with Reformed people would be my guess. (Bill can you provide a footnote for my undocumented assertion?)
You said: "This is God's church. Jesus Christ is and has been at work here. Has He accomplished nothing in the past 2000 or so years? Why is anybody in the emerging church so sure that He is not accomplishing anything now?"
You have now overgeneralized. This isn't the case at all. I know no one who is saying this.
You said: "Who thinks that is the case Brian, I don't." This was in reference to America being the center of Christianity.
Well... I think many do think that way.
You said: "You see Brian, not all of us are smitten by James Dobson, or D James Kennedy (God rest His soul)."
I didn't know Kennedy had died. But sure enough. God rest his soul. Talk about fortress mentality.
You said: "We are independent thinkers."
That is great news and I believe you.
You said: "Those of us who are immersed in our Bibles know exactly how to counter this kind of thinking."
I don't know what you mean.
You said: "About the Trinity: this debate reminds me of the Scripture where Moses asks God to give him a name so that he can go back and ask the children of Israel, "Who shall I tell them that sent me?"
This is silly. If I think we should look further into the Trinity, I am asking too much because God is God? Come on Ken.
The Trinity will be one of the most attacked doctrines in this century along with the nature of heaven. This is a perfect example of where we can spend some time giving further dimension to the doctrines that the unchurched and the anti-church are asking questions about. It is a great doctrine, and I believe underdeveloped in the CGGC as it could have great influence to come.
You said: "I have never been to any of our churches (nor anybody else's) where they don't call out to the Holy Spirit every worship Sunday."
That has not been my experience at all. Perhaps the East is more in-tune with the Spirit.
You said: "I know that Christ is God Brian. And I am not the brightest light on the block."
Of course you do. My response was coming out of my many conversations with non-Christians about spiritual things. "Jesus as God" is a stumbling point for them. Perhaps we need to deepen this access point for them. By no means weakening it. By all means deepening it. This is part of the Trinity doctrine I was speaking of.
You said: "My real concern for you as a brother might be that you are not critically evaluating the writing and sayings of the people that you are hanging with."
You are in fact impugning my thought process because of what I might have read. I am not offended, but more tired. God forbid I read people who stretch me.
You said: "Maybe there are a few Bible thumpers out there who are putting everybody in hell, but I would be inclined to think that they are far from a majority. My big question to you is Brian: "Why does it matter?"
Actually you brought up hell in your post. I would say it doesn't matter all that much, though just for the record I believe in a literal hell.
You said: "Brian, maybe what all of this proves is that we are not so far apart, you and I."
Maybe, but aren't you concerned that hanging out with me will make your dad wait for you till the wee hours of the morning? I hope you took that as humor. I thought it was kind of funny.
You said: "But what we really need to sit down and consider is "How urgent is really the need for change?" I posit that one of the biggest problems that we have in the church today is that people don't read their Bible. If they would only do that, we could do so much. I doctrine change a real necessity? Or is it changing the way people think?"
I would agree with you to a large extent. But the world has changed, dramatically. Christian church attendance will drop from the current 35% to under 10% in the next ten years. It happened in Europe and we are on the same path. Some would say we need to entrench ourselves and this is where the fortress mentality gets stronger. Not in the CGGC, but I would point to Battlecry as an example. Looking forward, I think Christianity will have to become counter-cultural again as it was before Constantine in order to be effective later in this century.
Brian
This is George Jensen. I'm having trouble with my screen name. Brian, I know you don't like anonymous posts. I hope that in lieu of the circumstances, using an anonymous post in this fashion (giving my identity) like Brent did will be o.k. If not, then please forgive me.
I was not going to comment on this blog, but I want to offer a warning:
I believe that if this proposed forum were to occur and if those of us on this blog were to run it, it would precipitate a "theological war." We are WAY too polarized on the matters mentioned here. So, for the sake of unity, I recommend that that the proposed forum by this group be scrapped.
Furthermore, we on this blog have NO RIGHT to hold such a forum. The General Conference (actually, the International Fellowship that was created at the GC in June) has the authority to call for such a forum. So, if you are really passionate about having this forum (I am speaking to several of you), then write a letter or send a petition to the General Conference. If they choose to have a forum, fine. If not, then we on this blog have NO RIGHT to re-write We Believe. That may sound a bit "modern," but it is fact. The General Conference is the authority, like it or not.
-Rev. George Jensen
Enola First Church of God
Hi George,
Your post is fine. Just need identification which you provided.
George said: "We are WAY too polarized on the matters mentioned here. So, for the sake of unity, I recommend that that the proposed forum by this group be scrapped."
You may be right George.
George said: Furthermore, we on this blog have NO RIGHT to hold such a forum.
You are right George. And I don't think anyone is proposing this. My understanding, and it may be from personal conversation rather than blog, is that Bill is wondering if it is time for the GC to call such a forum.
George said: The General Conference (actually, the International Fellowship that was created at the GC in June) has the authority to call for such a forum.
I think you are wrong about the International Fellowship having such a right, which is one reason I think we are still thinking America is the center of Christianity. I don't think they will have any authority at all.
But you are right about the GC, as far as I know.
Thank you George, I agree. No forum please! Finally, a voice of reason.
Our present understandings of the Bible are more than sufficent at this time to lead us into the future.
Eph. 6:24 Grace be with all them that love our Lord Jesus Christ in sincerety, AMEN.
Ken Zitsch
Bill,
-----------------------------------
Wednesday, December 07, 2005
Why I believe Feetwashing Signifies the Incarnation
There are two reasons. One has to do with the general message of John and the other with the way John presents the feetwashing story in chapter 13.
First, John doesn’t present Jesus in the way Protestants have normally seen Him.
Protestants have always presented Jesus as the One who made atonement for the sins of the world--as a savior who came to fulfill Old Testament prophecy and to save His people from their sin through His death on the cross.
That Protestant image of Jesus in not John’s image of Jesus. In John’s Gospel, Jesus is the Word who became flesh and made His dwelling among us. He is a savior who lived in the world. And, then He died for His people. The difference between the Jesus we were taught (or, at least, the one I was taught) and John’s Jesus is an important one. John's Jesus is the Man of the Incarnation, at least as much as He is the Means of the Atonement.
Consider this: In John 3:16, at the very beginning of His ministry, Jesus speaks of God’s gift of His Son in the past tense. You know the words. “For God so love that world that he gave his one and only son….” According to Jesus, God’s gift of His Son had already been given when Jesus spoke to Nicodemus. The giving of God’s Son is not a reference to His death on the cross. It is a reference to John 1:14, “…the word became flesh.”
And, consider this: In John 14:6, Jesus speaks in the present tense, not in the future tense. We most often hear this verse quoted for the words, “No one comes to the father except through me.” However, the first sentence in the verse is the one that is truly powerful. Jesus says, “I AM (present tense—before the arrest and crucifixion) the way and the truth and the life.” As John recounts Jesus’ words, Jesus had already, at that time already become the way, truth and life. There is no reference to the crucifixion here.
So, first, in a general sense, in John’s Gospel, it is the incarnation of Jesus that is the focus.
Second, think through John 13.
In my opinion, the key verse in the feetwashing account isn’t in the description of Jesus washing the disciples’ feet. The key verse is Jesus’ commentary on it that doesn’t appear until verse 34. Jesus says, “A new command I give you: love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.”
Again, the reference isn’t to the crucifixion. Jesus doesn’t define His love in terms of the atonement. He defines in terms of an action that was already accomplished. Now, in the most specific sense, the ‘have loved you’ part refers to what Jesus had just done. He’d just washed their feet. Jesus actually defines the feetwashing, not as an act of humility, but as an act of love.
But, it’s easy to see that in John 13, John’s incarnation-focused message is present. John 13:3 says, “Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under his power, and that he had come from God and was returning to God….” John says that, in Jesus’ mind, it was the totality of His incarnation—from the moment He became flesh to the moment that He would return to God—that was what was in His mind. And, it was at the precise moment He was reflecting on the incarnation that He got up from the table and took off His outer garments to wash the disciples’ feet.
So, from the description of feetwashing in John 13:1-17, there can be no doubt: Feetwashing signifies the incarnation: The fact that Jesus had come from God and that He was returning to God.
And, from the constant references to the incarnation in John 3:16, John 14:6 and John 13:34, it is clear that, in all of John, the incarnation of Jesus is the major theme John.
Bottom line: I think the CGGC has this one correct.
-----------------------------------
You're right Bill, right in line with Forney. The practice of feetwashing gets its meaning from the incarnation. The showing of humility is a virtue, but it can never be a motivation in our acts of serving our brothers and sisters. The CGGC has it right, and Forney did too.
Me thinks this post here in 2007 providentially speaking was misguided.
Ken Zitsch
This post in response to Ken’s comments a few days ago in reply to one of my comments. Ken wrote, “It is hard to communicate clearly online. If you want to call me, I would most certainly welcome the call.” For me, I think this statement helps illustrate what the emerging church has come to signify for me. I agree that online communication is very different from face-to-face, or in the case of phone call, voice to voice. We want to see and hear people’s reactions. Written communication doesn’t allow for that – emails and blogs included.
It was Robert Webber’s “Ancient Future Faith” (back in 1999) that first caused me to seriously consider how following Jesus as a person and not as words on a page made a difference in my life. Brian talked about the church emerging from the fortress mentality. For me, the emerging church means moving beyond an understanding that we are to be “people of book” to an understanding that we are to be “people of the Way” (from Acts). Following a person is dynamic, ever changing. The Bible, while central to our faith, points towards a PERSON. Imagine the difference between following written directions as opposed to following the car in front of you – following the person is much more challenging.
While I am NOT saying that our doctrine needs to be reformulated, I AM saying that we are called to follow a person, Jesus. Therefore our faith is dynamic and ever changing. There are absolutes. But often not as many as we truly want to believe.
Brian has already addressed the topic of our generation’s biblical literacy, so I’ll move on from that.
Ken, you seem very concerned about labels – liberal/conservative, modern/postmodern, etc. Categories and labeling are very modern in nature, which is not to say they are bad. One of the problems occurs when people who are moderns are masquerading around calling themselves “postmodern” – this only muddies the water. Mark my word, you will NEVER find someone who understands the nuances of the philosophical streams of thought that influence a postmodern culture calling themselves “postmodern.” Am I evangelical? Yes. Am I conservative? I suppose. Does this matter? Not really. We need to move beyond viewing ourselves and others as a label and genuinely listen to what he/she is saying.
One final thought for this morning: no one here, myself included, comes to this debate assuming that “We Believe” or any other doctrine MUST be changed. I tire of hearing/reading that all “they” want to do is change things. But things must be constantly evaluated – which means there will be times like this where some people are uncomfortable with the conversation. That is good. At the end of the day the statement may not change, but we will all walk away with a better appreciation of what it really means.
Re: "Our present understandings of the Bible are more than sufficent at this time to lead us into the future."
Ken,
With all due respect and in the love of the Lord, that's the scariest thing I've ever heard.
I couldn't disagree with you more. And, I hope from the depths of my heart that no one else on this blog or anywhere else in this body shares that sentiment.
Ken,
Re: "Why I believe Feetwashing Signifies the Incarnation"
Well said.
I share your understanding of John 3:16, 1:14 and 13:34.
Nevertheless, I disagree with your assertion that feetwashing 'signifies' the incarnation.
However, I think this post of yours would be a great discussion starter. I think you should consider entering this as a separate topic and begin a discussion of Feet Washing as a separate issue.
I was considering entering one on the definition of an ordinance that I hoped would serve the same function. But, if you start a topic around this one, I'll be glad to take up the issue under your topic.
bill
Brent,
Re: Your response to Ken entered on 9/21/2007 6:45 AM.
Well said.
Thanks.
Are you finished with your dissertation? Are you Dr. Brent yet?
I have not joined this discussion of we believe/winebrenner/forney/doctrine because: one – I’m not all that knowledgeable about any of it; and two – I really just don’t care (and I don’t mean that disrespectfully, but, honestly… it’s not at the top of my priority list – so I am REALLY grateful to those of you who do have a serious passion for such things). However, there are three things I want to say:
1. Brent – your comment on following Jesus as a person and not as words on a page was fantastic. Thanks.
2. And THANK YOU, BILL for saying that Ken’s comment “Our present understandings of the Bible are more than sufficient at this time to lead us into the future" was the scariest thing you had read. I mean, Ken, isn’t that what a ‘fortress attitude’ is all about?
3. Apparently I do not understand what a *forum* is either. Isn’t it merely getting together and discussing something? What are we afraid of if we can’t do that?
Good stuff here, folks. I’ll even spare you the usual sarcastic humor. :)
Bill,
Yes. I defended a few weeks ago. I just need to submit it to Duquesne University and then...graduate in December.
It's a nice feeling to be finished.
Brent
Bill,
You say that you disagree with Ken's assertion that feetwashing 'signifies' the incarnation. Fine.
But, Ken was quoting a post from this blog which was written December 7, 2005. In that post, the blogger wrote, "So, from the description of feetwashing in John 13:1-17, there can be no doubt: Feetwashing signifies the incarnation: The fact that Jesus had come from God and that He was returning to God."
Now, guess who the blogger was that wrote that post in December of 2005: It was YOU! Go back and check it out in the blog archives.
I am curious--has your view on feetwashing signifying/not signifying the incarnation changed since 12/05 or am I just misunderstanding you?
George C. Jensen
Enola First Church of God
Bill,
RE: The post that I made that started like this:
Bill,
-----------------------------------
Wednesday, December 07, 2005
Why I believe Feetwashing Signifies the Incarnation
Brother, I am absolutely amazed that you don't recognize a post that you made in December 2005, right here on this blog.
In your response that you made suggesting above that I make this a new topic of discussion so that others could interact with it, you said this:
"Nevertheless, I disagree with your assertion that feetwashing 'signifies' the incarnation."
Bill, that wasn't my assertation. Don't you recognize your own work? It was not me that made that assertation, it was YOU.
RE: Wednesday, December 07, 2005
Have you changed your mind brother?
Here is my problem with all of this (and what I see here confirms my suspicions). I respectfully and humbly submit to you that all you are doing on this blog is trying to philosophize, and put words in people's mouths. What is to me the most amazing, you even (I believe: Arrogantly with a trace of elitism) presuming to put words in God's mouth.
This is why our theology here in this denomination is exactly what it needs to be for now. I do not see that anyone I have responded to directly here on this blog (save: Phil) is in a position, or has the credentials to even pretend to be able to reformulate our denominational doctrinal statement. And if there are people out there in the leadership levels of our denomination that agee with you, God help us all. Now, that is not an attack on any of them or you personally, I would not question that you are all very good men, men of God, and probably very effective servants and Pastors of the people that you serve. But in all honesty, theologically speaking, you live out on the clouds. None of you really have any idea of what you are talking about (with regards to me or anyone else). At least not in this venue that is the Churches of God.
Here is something that I think will help me make this point even more clearly...
I was ordained in the Eastern Region of the Churches of God. Now, it is my understanding that all the conferences have made a move in the past couple of years to make their ordination process more uniform. So I am going to assume that for the most part in all our denominational conferences, what they all require is pretty much the same (but I could be wrong).
Brothers, If I were to have held to some of the positions that I have seen postulated in going over the past two years on this blog, i.e. things concerning the Bible, salvation, the ordinances, spirituality, even ministry; I would not have been ordained in the ERCGGC. I would not have expected to be ordained.
Brothers, our theology and practices in the churches of God are based in the Bible. The Bible is our rule of faith and practice. Our theology is not based in the philosophies of Brian MaClaren, Richard Foster, Leonard Sweet, Dan Kimball, Rick Warren, Tony Campolo or any other one.
And please don't tell me that you are different from them. The theories that you postulate and the philosophy of ministry that you advocate on this blog tells all of us otherwise. It is straight out of their books. If you want to dispute that, then give me a couple of weeks and I will match up what you say with the material in their books and I will present it to you. And I will also show you why it is improper from the Word.
I'm sorry guys, but you need to go back and understand what it is that makes you Churches of God (theologically speaking, not born into it generationally or any other wise). There are some of us out here that understand why our theology is uniquely Churches of God. And I can assure you: We do not really care about books like "We Believe" Books are not anything that we should idolize. Our attitude has nothing to do with being "modernistic". This statement by the CGGC is a tool that we use to introduce people to what "We Believe" It can be changed, it can be made to present the material in a more effective way. But there is something in that book which will never change (contrary to what you may think and say). That is what "WE BELIEVE." We do not want you to change our system of beliefs to conform with yours. You are out of step with us. And I gotta tell ya that all the evidence that we need to make that judgement is right here in the past two years of this blog.
-----------------------------------
Brent buddy,
you said,
"For me, the emerging church means moving beyond an understanding that we are to be “people of book” to an understanding that we are to be “people of the Way” (from Acts). Following a person is dynamic, ever changing. The Bible, while central to our faith, points towards a PERSON."
I love you brother, but John 1:1-3 says something entirely different from what you are saying (save the last four words of your quote. You cannot create a false dichotomy between "the Way" and "the Book". Jesus Himself is the Lord of them both. The Scriptures are God's WORD. Jesus is the book. The book is the Word. Somehow Jesus and the book are both inextricably bound together in such a way that they were both in the beginning with God. The book directs us to Jesus Christ authoritatively by God with His statutes and commandments to be applied in our lives. It is not ambiguous, it is not culturally bound, it is for people regenerated as John Winebrenner said, "who live daily (not) sinning in thought, word, and deed (pg. 44, A Popular Treatise). The Bible is the document of our covenant that we agree to uphold when we start to take our first steps toward God. The disciples had Jesus for those tree years in the countryside before his crucifixion, we have the Book now that the Holy Spirit testifies within us that we must submit ourselves to for the rest of our lives.
The reason that Brian MaClaren and other New Age gurus want to put questions in our mind about the book is that once it is removed or deemphasized then whatever they imagine can be the case.
We need to stop thinking that every new wind of philosophy that blows across our face is something that we need to embrace (I speak generally, not of you).
As for your concerns about my seeming stodginess with regard to "We Believe", My friend Phil in his post to this vry discussion above said it right with regard to our doctrinal statement, I quote him (I hope he does not mind):
"I want to agree with you (Ken) on the WE BELIEVE. Yes some things could be clearer. It is a good biblically sound work. It's value is that it is a statement of our understanding of scripture. It all goes back to scripture... I am more interested in what scripture says than men. Adjust the WE BELIEVE,yes. But scrap it and start over as some of the conversation seems to indicate, NO.
And concerning your objection (any of you out there) that I am putting words in your mouth (scrapping it), I refer you back to the first months of this blog. I would have thought the emphasis there would have been on a free flow of ideas (ministerially wise); but, instead, one of the very first things that was conversed about was changing "We Believe." It is not a question of whether we should or shouldn't, the question is... what gives you the right. This is not your book, it is ours.
I agree with Phil, and I certainly would not have any objections to doing what he suggests under normal circumstances. But, we are not at a place where we can do that if what I see to be the hands doing it are the ones on this blog.
Our doctrine needs to start in the Bible, it needs to be formulated by men of God (remember: eldership, not democracy) and it needs to be generally agreed upon by people who have lived it out generationally for the past 170-180 years. Those are the people that you would find out here in places like the Wallaceton Church of God, or the East Harrison Street Church of God in Illinois, or the Alice Church in Iowa (just a couple of many). It is not the place of a couple who presume themselves to be just what the doctor ordered to make changes for the rest of us. I know that all of us want to be more effective in our witness, and we want to submit to the will of God; but, it does not follow that we are inclined to accept your beliefs and make them our own.
Repent brothers and bring your thinking more in line with the teachings of the BOOK.
I found this, I think it is profound:
"A debate is a conflict which clarifies a position. A dialogue is a conversation which compromises a position."
I would want to see some of the positions held here on this blog debated within our denomination.
Ken Zitsch
Ken,
I'm not disputing what you wrote about John 1:1-3.
From my experience (and many others) the emphasis was on the written portion of the Word at the expense of the human side of Jesus. My point is that we need to recover the balance. I am not suggesting we get rid of the written portion. But like you said, "The book is the Word. Somehow Jesus and the book are both inextricably bound together in such a way that they were both in the beginning with God." I agree. But there must be a balance. Many people like myself, who grew up in churches deeply influenced by the modern emphasis upon the written Word (many historical forces helped forge this) did not get a balanced view of Jesus as Person Word and written Word.
You also wrote, "I found this, I think it is profound: 'A debate is a conflict which clarifies a position. A dialogue is a conversation which compromises a position.'
Before I make any comments about a potential misuse of the concept of "dialogue" let me ask, where did you find this? Dialogue is a concept that has a deep philosophical history and is often used without a proper understanding. I'm not yet suggesting you are misusing the term, but I want to know your source before I respond.
Why/how did you find this profound?
Another topic - you stated sometime ago about working on a doctoral project. What program and where? We're all interested in ongoing education. Keep us informed.
George,
I do indeed recall writing that post and meant it passionately at the time.
And, yes, my view has changed.
As I said to Ken, I've had a whole new discussion forming in my mind on the definition of an ordinance in which I planned to explain the shift in my opinion.
Briefly, I have come to believe that the incarnation is implied in the significance of Feet Washing. It is the notion that an ordinance is something that signifies an act in redemptive history that I have failed to find biblical convincing support for and have, thus, abandoned.
You do have a good memory, though.
Ken,
I don't know if you remember me from WTS or not - we were likely at opposite sides of the class of '99. But given your argument against a forum.... if there is no one here who is qualified or credible enough to say there *should* one, is there anyone here that's qualified or credible enough to say there *should not* be one?
Again, I don't know that I would be interested, but I like to think it's as much my denomination as anyone else's.
Dan,
I remember you well enough to remember that you are a Godly man, passionate about the Lord, and as I can remember the last time I saw you, I thought,
"Boy he is gonna be a heck of a pastor."
This isn't about you Dan,
This is about a movement which I know very clearly to be corrosive and corrupting.
In our day and age people make a living by exploiting other people's misfortunes. I see a generation that has been largly neglected and you have wolves coming in and convincing them that the traditional church doesn't have it right.
That is nonsense.
Jesus told us before He left,
"I will never leave you or forsake you."
"The gates of hell shall not prevail against you."
and finally with regard to the authority of the church, "Jesus said that it would have the authority to bind and loose with regard to salvation."
The only time that is going to change is when the church apostasizes itself and it is time for Christ to come back.
The issues that the emerging church have against the traditional church do not hold water. The water and the Word are in the Church of God.
I speak generally brother, I know that you are doing a fine job, but those who hold tenants of the emerging church without question are not in a poition to question the dctrines of our Chruch of God.
I'm sorry, but that is the way I feel.
your brother,
Ken
Ken, my friend,
I appreciate the kind words, and I am not going to argue or defend the emerging church. It has been done on this blog over and over again. I will say, though, that I happen to think John Winebrenner himself would have been cool with it. And he would likely have even found a spot for you in his denomination.
peace, brother.
Dan,
I don't know what you meant by the last part of your post brother; it did not seem to be very gracious. But I forgive you, and if cutting at me will help you to accomplish something, by all means cut away.
You said:
I am not going to argue or defend the emerging church. It has been done on this blog over and over again. I will say, though, that I happen to think John Winebrenner himself would have been cool with it.
Will you bear with me while I shed a little persective on that premise Dan:
“I don’t think we’ve got the gospel right yet. What does it mean to be saved?... None of us have arrived at orthodoxy.” Brian McLaren, Christianity Today, p.40
“Perhaps our ‘inward-turned, individual-salvation-oriented, un-adapted Christianity’ is a colossal and tragic misunderstanding, and perhaps we need to listen again for the true song of salvation, which is ‘good news to all creation.’ So perhaps it’s best to suspend what, if anything, you ‘know’ about what it means to call Jesus ‘Savior’ and to give the matter of salvation some fresh attention. Let’s start simply. In the Bible, save means ‘rescue’ or ‘heal’. It emphatically does not mean ‘save from hell’ or ‘give eternal life after death,’ as many preachers seem to imply in sermon after sermon. Rather its meaning varies from passage to passage, but in general, in any context, save means ‘get out of trouble.’ The trouble could be sickness, war, political intrigue, oppression, poverty, imprisonment, or any kind of danger or evil.”
––Brian McLaren , A Generous Orthodoxy, p. 93
--John Winebrenner
A Popular Treatise on Regeneration
(pg. 17)
Now, as man by the fall lost both the favor and the image of God, there is a twofold change necessary in order to his salvation, viz:
1. A Change of state; and,
2. A Change of nature
1. A change of state or condition is requisite in all that would be saved. The bondman must become a freedman. The alien must become a citizen. The enemy must become a friend, etc. See John 8:36; Eph. 2:12, 19; Rom. 5:10; 1 Pet. 2: 9, 10.
2. Man's nature must be changed. The lion must become a lamb. The vulture a dove. The corrupt tree a good tree. The wild olive tree a good olive tree. See John 10:26, 27; Matt. 7:17, 18; Rom 11:17, 24.
I think it is clear when examining the evidence that most assuredly, Winebrenner would have invited emergents to church. When they got there however, he would not have thought to rescue, heal, or get them out of trouble. He would have looked to participate with God in effecting their regeneration. Regeneration is a thorough change of man's depraved nature, after the image of God (Winebrenner again-page 17).
Winebrenner then goes on in pg. 55 of His Popular Treatise to produce texts that argue for the necessity of the new birth. He shows specifically from the texts that "(they will be excluded) from the kingdom of God and condemn(ed) to eternal punishment all who die without it (regeneration).
My brother Dan: Winebrenner would have been passionate about emergents coming to church and and undergoing a significant life change. He would not as you say have been cool with what we see that they are being taught today.
I beg you brother, put this emergent philosophy away from you. It is a different gospel (Gal 1:8).
Ken Zitsch
Ken,
I am sorry if you misinterpreted my comment to be ungracious. I was not trying to "cut at you" or "accomplish" anything. I guess it was my way of saying that we do not agree and rather than using a generalized label, I personalized it. Re-reading it now, I probably should have put a smiley face after it.
What little I know/remember of you, friend, is that you are a very passionate person. I don't doubt your love for God. However, I hope you are not naive enough to think that everyone agrees with every single thing you say. :)
I wish you grace, love and peace, brother.
Ken,
Re: “Don't you recognize your own work? It was not me that made that assertation, it was YOU.
RE: Wednesday, December 07, 2005
Have you changed your mind brother?”
Yes, as I just indicated to George, I have changed my mind. In the past year or so I have come to have an increasingly greater appreciation for the unique genius of John Winebrenner and, as a result, have come to regret some of the ways we have diverted ourselves from following his thought. His theology was naïve. But he had a skill about keeping the important thing the important thing. I wish we would regain that. The questions of the Ordinances and Feet Washing are two of the ways my regained respect for Winebrenner has impacted my thinking.
Re: “None of you really have any idea of what you are talking about (with regards to me or anyone else)”
Ken, if I have been guilty of launching a personal attack against you, I apologize. I do believe that I have read your posts carefully and that I have drawn from them the inferences that are justified.
Re: “Our theology is not based in the philosophies of Brian MaClaren, Richard Foster, Leonard Sweet, Dan Kimball, Rick Warren, Tony Campolo or any other one. . .If you want to dispute that, then give me a couple of weeks and I will match up what you say with the material in their books and I will present it to you. And I will also show you why it is improper from the Word.“
Rock on, dude, if you’d like. But. . .
. . .are you aware that Leonard Sweet was the Ritz lecture speaker several years ago, that Tony Campolo was warmly welcomed to IMPACT this year and that a significant number of our churches have had great success with Rick Warren’s Forty Days of Purpose?
Gang,
I am about to shut down my computer to leave for a week of vacation.
This has been an energetic conversation and I will try to keep my eye on what you are saying if I have wireless internet access, though I will not write anything further until I'm back at the grind.
Ken,
Dan was not insulting you. To do so would be completely outside of his character. He was being lighthearted to deal with the tension of the intensity of this discussion.
Peace, bro!
Later,
bill
Dan,
Shalom!
No offense intended, none taken.
I understand completely that not everybody agrees with me. I would never presume that they would.
Goodness knows, I am a disagreeable guy.
It is the gospel that compels me.
May God bless you and enable you to have as much success as possible in your ministry.
your brother
ken
Brent,
Before I bury myself in finalizing my sermon,
I just want you to know that I appreciated your post. I will get back to you probably on Monday.
I want to interact with that dialogue/debate stuff. If I remember Earl correctly, your emphasis is in that kind of thing (maybe I'm wrong). But anyway, I have some stuff, I'd like to know what you think.
As per your inquiry:
Gordon-Conwell
Preacher and the Message Track
I hope to quite fooling around and graduate this Spring (maybe it would help if I quit messing around on blogs:)
your brother
ken
Bill,
you posted:
. . .are you aware that Leonard Sweet was the Ritz lecture speaker several years ago, that Tony Campolo was warmly welcomed to IMPACT this year and that a significant number of our churches have had great success with Rick Warren’s Forty Days of Purpose?
Good!
That is really none of my business though is it.
Ed and his gang (Wayne before him) do what they need to do to try and provide opportunities for us to learn. Hitler burnt books, we don't do that. We always need to be aware of what's going on. You can't learn in a vacuum if you want to be effective in your ministry to unbelievers.
Besides that, I don't know that the seminary or the denomination inviting people like that to our events means we neccessarily fully endorse their ministry. (or am I wrong?)
In any case, I believe that this verse applies:
Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
I try to live like that:)
As far as the other churches and Rich Warren's "Forty days of Purpose" is concerned:
Once again, that is their business. It is a tool and maybe it is effective for them as they apply it to their context. I am content using the Church year, particularly the season of Lent. This is a laturgical time for reflection that has been around for centuries. I design my own material and shape my preaching themes to encourage self-examination. My way is my way, their way is theirs. Whatever works in bringing people into a closer walk with Christ.
your brother
ken
Please forgive the intrusion.
I've been following this conversation from the "sidelines", and it's been quite a ride. There is almost too much here to digest given the limited time I have to read it, and the limited knowledge I have of CGGC. ( I'm not a CGGC member)
But, I wonder if someone would be kind enough to help me understand a few things. The current philosophical/theological debate is intense and thought-provoking. However, sometimes it is necessary for me to put things in more concrete terms to really get a handle on the issue.
So, if one of you gentlemen could assist me, here's my questions:
1. The term "post-modern generation" ...it's a fuzzy concept for me. Can you describe, concretely, what a "post-modern" individual looks like?
Realistically, that is an impossible task, I realize. But, when you think of those you need to minister to---who do you visualize?
Are you referencing only suburbanite, college graduates? Or would you include blue collar workers, the under-educated, etc.
I can't quite get a grip on who these folks are that y'all are talking about.
2. What's wrong with re-evaluating, as a denomination, what you believe/teach?
Maybe....no, most certainly... there are elements of your "We Believe" that can be further developed, if not actually changed. Seems to me it would be helpful to CGGC pastors if the denom provided a deeper and richer understanding of the tenets of faith. Pastors need to be able to teach/preach with authority. And to do so, they need a firm foundation.
As for the possibility of change--- your statement of faith isn't really all that old; and you make no claim of infallibility in your doctrinal statement that I'm aware of. Or do you?
3. Why are certain questions taboo?
I was surprised by this exchange:
***************************
Ken: “I admire John Winebrenner. I honor him as the founder of our denomination. He has and should have pride of place in that regard. But I will also believe that Forney's place in our history is secure.”
Bill: Me too. My question is whether or not Forney deserves so dominant a place in our present. My question is not based in a lack of respect for him. It is founded in my sense that the unsaved culture is no longer asking questions he can help us answer.
Ken: Do you really believe that Bill? If so, is it really appropriate for you to say so? Once again: Just because we can ask the questions, does it really mean that we should?
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Wow.
RE: "Just because we can ask the questions, does it reallly mean that we should?"
That's a little scary.
Not to sound melodramatic but
when a denom begins to suppress questions doesn't that stifle growth? And doesn't a lack of growth lead to death? or at least inertia?
Questions are opportunities to exchange ideas and develop understanding. Not something to be suppressed and feared.
4. What questions are post-moderns asking that the Church isn't prepared to answer?
I've heard this said repeatedly; I've yet to hear it fully defined.
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Lastly, just a comment. Comments have been made addressing the passion for Truth of those in the Church. Despite the differences in approach and philosophy apparent on this blog, there is a sense of sincerity and commitment to serve Jesus Christ from all who participate. IMHO.
Sorry for getting so wordy---didn't intend to.
Thanks in advance for any assistance you can provide to help me better understand this vital issue.
Peace,
Felicia Swavely
Felicia:
My name is Ken Zitsch. I am a Pastor at on of our CGGC Chrurches in Western/Central PA.
Honored to make your acquaintaince.
As I start, I want to let you know that I do not presume to speak for the rest of the people on this blog. Actually it may have been a little presumptuous to have spoken out on this blog to begin with. I have done it however because of my passion for the truth.
Having said that, I offer this to your questions:
You asked:
1. The term "post-modern generation" ...it's a fuzzy concept for me. Can you describe, concretely, what a "post-modern" individual looks like?
My answer: As you said, that may be an impossible task. I am pursuing a doctoral tract at a seminary with regard to preaching. In working on my thesis, I am reading a book. The book is called "Preaching to a Postmodern World." It is by a fellow named Graham Johnston.
I offer you his definition. I do so because I don't have enough esearch under my belt to offer you my own. I think I know, but I am not prepared to say. Here is his definition:
In brief, postmodernism refers to a worldview, a wayn of perceiving the world, that is a backlash against the enlightenment dream and dismisses any overarching set of ideas. Postmodernity is the worldview that says no worldview exists. The enlightenment arrogance sought to provide answers to all questions. Postmodern people simply live in the quandary of not knowing and of potential meaninglessness...
The difference in worldview can be witnessed in the T.V. shows watched by the moderns versus the postmoderns. Previous generations grew up on "Father Knows Best", "Ozzie And Harriet", The "Dick Van Dyke Show", and "The Brady Bunch", each brimming with hope and goodness. This generation's leading T.V. families are "The Simpsons", The Bundys of "Married with Children"
The Castanzas of "Seinfeld", and the colorful children from "South Park", all losers without a clue."
This would be close to my own definition Felicia.
Graham goes on to list some tenants that would emerge as the hallmarks of these people:
2) They reject objective truth.
3) They are sketical and suspicious of authority.
5) They've blurred reality and are into whatever's expedient.
6) They continue to search for the transcendent.
7) They're living in a media world unlike any other.
8) They'll engage in the knowing smirk.
9) They live in a material world.
10) They are in a search for community.
At the present, it is the best I am prepared to do (until have researched more). I hope it is helpful to you.
You asked:
2. What's wrong with re-evaluating, as a denomination, what you believe/teach?
Nothing! As long as we stay within the confines of what you say after you ask your question:
"Maybe....no, most certainly... there are elements of your "We Believe" that can be further developed, if not actually changed. Seems to me it would be helpful to CGGC pastors if the denom provided a deeper and richer understanding of the tenets of faith."
If it is only that, I do not believe that anyone will have a problem at all. My concern Felicia would be only if we were attempting to change the tenents of our faith.
I would concede that I might be a liittle paranoid in saying that this might happen. My fear is rooted in the fact that I am very suspicious of the motives of what we call the "Emerging Church movement." This movement presumes to understand postmodern people, but I don't believe that is the case at all. I believe that the leaders of this movement are themselves postmoderns who have no allegiance to the historic church, and have not worked through the issues. To much I see that they are more than willing to leave persons in their questions and doubt. This should not be the case for the church that Jesus has raised up.
What this has to do with our denomination is this: I trust our leaders explicitly (I have no reason not too). They are good people and I believe that they passionately want to reach the lost for Christ. But I would want to make sure that before we go off and change anything doctrinally, we make sure that no one has inadvertantly accepted a theological premise that is n contradiction to our historic Christian faith. We cannot accept lock, stock, and barrel everything that we read. The Emerging Church may have accurately pin-pointed that there is a generation of people out there that the traditional church has not reached. I am less than certain that they have understood why.
You asked:
3. Why are certain questions taboo?"
This is why I took it upon myself to answer you. This is in response to one of my posts.
One of the reasons that I see that there is confusion in the postmodern generation is that they see the leaders of churches disagreeing among themselves. It isn't that is is wrong to ask the questions Felicia, I'm just not sure that it is appropriate in a public forum such as this.
Despite how it seems at times, I believe that people in the church agree more than they disagree. I'm not saying that is the case in all cases where people in the church argue and bicker over peripheral issues (you see that happening all the time), but I believe that the church has instruction in Scripture as to how we deal with honest disagreements. We need to be united, and we need to have a very strong sense of what we believe (contra: Emerging church)It isn't good enough just to dismiss traditionalist's viewpoints (just because it is thought that they are old-fashioned and traditional) out of hand.
In the end it is the whole church that must decide the direction that we are to go. Fortunately the church is a "cloud of witnesses" both past and present. The direction of the church is not up to a few individuals. We might need to adjust our approach, but we need to do it with a right understanding of why we have failed in the first place. I personally am not of the opinion that our statement of what "We Believe" has been a major issue as to why we are ineffective in reaching out to this generation. I believe instead that it is far more likely that we have not understood ourselves what "We Believe." We have been guilty of not practicing what we preach. I'm not sure that our practices are completely in line with our theology. That is just my opinion, it may not be in-line with anyone else on this blog.
You asked:
4. What questions are post-moderns asking that the Church isn't prepared to answer?
Here are some of what I believe are the answer to your question:
1. Who am I?
2. Why am I here?
3. Why does the church presume to have the right answers to my questions?
4. Why should I be willing to trust anybody in a position of authority?
5. What is truth?
6. Is all of this life just an illusion?
7) Is that your personal interpretation?
8) Why should you have authority over me?
I believe Felicia that some of these are valid questions. I am upset however about the one's out there in the world giving the answers. To many of us, the answers given for some of these questions in the name of faith are alarming. And contrary to what I have read in places, there is no question that these are questions that the church shouldn't be prepared to answer, and we can. But only from within the confines of Faith and Scripture and how the Holy Spirit interprets it. Me thinks that over the past decades we have had generations of preachers and teachers answering those questions outside of those confines. They have been preaching and teaching what amounts to their own opinion (I know, in the churches that I grew up in, I heard it).
None of this means that the truth is wrong. It means that we have chosen to apply it wrongly. I would never say that what we believe can't be said in a better way, I would say however, "Lets apply it right before we rush off to judgement and presume to change it wholesale.
That is the best I can do, I hope I have been of some help. There may be some others on this blog of an entirely diiferent opinion, you will just have to hear what they say.
Ken Zitsch
Ken,
Thanks for responding to Felicia's questions.
A few thoughts/comments on what you wrote -
You wrote in an earlier post that you didn't want to set up any "straw men" and wanted to avoid falling into any logical fallacies of reasoning. I appreciate the strategy. But another logical fallacy is over-generalization which I think you are close to falling into here. You have commented several times about your fears of the Emerging Church movement without identifying how people on this blog confirm those fears. You have consistently said you trust our leaders, you admire the passion of those on this blog (ALL of whom are engaged in conversation about the Emerging Church, yourself included) and yet you then turn around and consistently condemn the EC movement as a whole. Don't underestimate the knowledge of those on this blog. Just because it's written by McLaren or some other EC leader does not mean we accept it "lock, stock, and barrel".
WE are part of the conversation. So if you don't see your fears confirmed on this blog, perhaps you need to re-evaluate some of your suspicions. If you do see your fears confirmed, it's always more helpful when you identify where/when as opposed to using the generic "they" believe this or that.
Second item, you also wrote: "It isn't that is is wrong to ask the questions Felicia, I'm just not sure that it is appropriate in a public forum such as this." Personally (based upon my research based opinion) I think that this is EXACTLY the forum to have these conversations.
This relates back to the debate/dialogue questions you raised. Before getting into that conversation, what are your concerns about discussing questions in a public forum? That presupposes there is a private forum (a distinction with which I agree). What would be appropriate in a public forum if we don't talk about issues such as these?
Thanks for your feedback.
Brent,
You said:
"WE are part of the conversation. So if you don't see your fears confirmed on this blog, perhaps you need to re-evaluate some of your suspicions. If you do see your fears confirmed..."
Brother, I do see my fears confirmed on this blog. I said precisely that in an above post. If that wern't the case, I would not have gotten involved in this blog at all. Quite honestly, I've got enough to do to work on my thesis and get other things done.
The thing is, I'm not going to get specific about what another might say. I will continue to speak generally. I am not going to let this deteriorate into what I see on some other parts of the web. I'm not going to tear away at other brothers and sisters. I'm not called to get into anyone else's face here, and tell them that what they believe is wrong. If I raise doubts in anyone, then they need to go to Scripture and satisfy their conscience and their doubts there. As for me, I'm going to say what I believe that the Bible teaches. If I am wrong, argue with me scripturally. I'm not afraid of a little healthy debate, and I'm not afraid of being proven wrong.
But as George said above, all confrontation and arguing will do is get us into a theological war. People are not apt to change unless God changes them. This is not about me, nor you, really not about anybody who posts here (in their individual contexts, they are the ones best able to decide what practices they need to pursue-there are ways of approaching ministry that can be gleaned from the EC, but we must be careful),
The Holy Spirit moves me to speak about nothing more than the general direction of the CGGC. At this point, the only place that I see anyone trying to affect that direction is here. My concern is not that anyone in particular here is up to no good, my concern is that the things that we read and make assumptions about are overblown and are not analyzed critically as far as how they might be in contradiction to traditional Christian theology. Like it or not Brent, sometimes we have a tendency to throw out the baby with the bathtub.
Brent, the only place that I have seen initiative for change is here. All I am concerned about in the way of dialogue (theopneustically speaking) is right here. Quite honestly, I've not heard of these conversations being held anywhere else in the conference or denomination.
Brent, I believe that nobody wants to intentionally believe anything other than what God has revealed to us. I believe that! There are no sinister people here. Everybody is just trying to do the best that they can do in the work that God has given them. It is going to stay just right there with me. I want to minister in this denomination till the day that I die. And I want my daughter and my other kids to have the opportunity to be a part of this denomination (and possibly be leaders) into the next generation. The only way that is going to happen is if we stay true to what God has been revealing about ourselves and Him and His Word for the past 2000 years. I seriously doubt Brent, that despite the voices that we hear coming out of this postmodern generation, that there is very much that we need to know that God hasn't already revealed to us. It isn't that truth isn't valid, it is that they (see precedent-above) don't want to hear it. Whether they are justified or not is a different story (personally, I believe they are). In any case however, the Bible is our rule of faith and practice. The Canon is closed. Everything that we need to get through life is right in the Word. Our doctrine (theological underpinnings) are fine because they are spelled out for us there. Our early church and denominational forefathers have done an excellent job of systematizing them for us. Quite honestly, if there was any new revelation that we needed to consider in the way of Christian theology, I would suspect that it would need to come from other places in addition to the CGGC. We don't operate in a vacumn, we are part of the Church (catholic). The only thing I see going on there are disputes as to whether the EC is a legitimate movement.
We might change how we introduce our doctrines in presenting them to the unbelieving world, we might (as humans) make the mistake of occasionally presenting opinion instead of what God has directed us to, we might at times even be regarded as unsympathetic or unyielding God forbid, we might not have even paid attention as we should have to the generation that we are presently ministering too. that is alright though, God never depended on us to get it perfect, thank you Jesus. But Brent, that has nothing to do with our theology. We need to do our job as Pastors in this denomination as Paul described to Timothy:
"This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting." (1Ti 1:15-16)
We are commanded in this way:
"This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare; Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:" (1Ti 1:18-19)
(Do you honestly believe that we are exempt from that ever potentially happening to us Brent? If you think that error cannot come into the CGGc, talk to the Methodists, Lutherans, Orthodox, or the Presbyterians. I'm sure that the issues that they deal with today had their origins quite innoculously)
Paul continues with his charge:
"I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; for kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; WHO WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED AND TO COME UNTO A KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.
I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting. (1Ti 2:1-8)
This Brent, is all that I seek to uphold.
I also take this seriously:
"For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. Hold fast the form of SOUND WORDS (other winesses translate "doctrine" I believe), which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us. (2Ti 1:12-14)
You and I have a responsibility to see to our own faith Brent. It is not for me to see to the faith of my peers in ministry. Maybe someday (Lord willing), He will lead me to the opportunity to teach Pastors, but at this point it isn't my calling to cause division. It is my responsibilty to challenge in individual instances where the opportunity is present. But, I will not be a source of division. And Brent, quite honestly for me, it does not matter who you are. In the end, the only one whom I would be afraid of answering too, is God.
Have a wonderful day brother.
Ken Zitsch
(Pardon my clumsy method of formatting this response. I can't seem to figure out how to use fonts, colors, etc. in this blog, to differentiate your statements from mine)
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Ken:
My name is Ken Zitsch. I am a Pastor at on of our CGGC Chrurches in Western/Central PA.
Honored to make your acquaintaince.
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Felicia:
Hi Pastor Ken, nice to meet you. I am not a Pastor; nor am I a CGGC'er. Just an interested bystander. :-) Although the concept of "emergence" has not affected my denom---every church body has to tackle the question of how to reach out to this new generation.
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Ken:
As I start, I want to let you know that I do not presume to speak for the rest of the people on this blog. I have done it however because of my passion for the truth.
Felicia:
One thing is obvious on this blog. Every participant has a passion for truth and strives to find a way to confirm what he/she believes, and present it to the world. I think we agree on that. Yes?
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Ken:
...(postmodernism) says no worldview exists. The enlightenment arrogance sought to provide answers to all questions. Postmodern people simply live in the quandary of not knowing and of potential meaninglessness...
Graham goes on to list some tenants that would emerge as the hallmarks of these people:
2) They reject objective truth.
3) They are sketical and suspicious of authority.
5) They've blurred reality and are into whatever's expedient.
6) They continue to search for the transcendent.
7) They're living in a media world unlike any other.
8) They'll engage in the knowing smirk.
9) They live in a material world.
10) They are in a search for community.
Felicia:
Maybe it's just me, I'm willing to admit that. But several of those definitions sound very unflattering and dehumanizing. Do we really believe that to be true of our children? our brothers and sisters(literally speaking)? our friends? and, if you are in that generation, ourselves?
[I'm not so much arguing, as thinking out loud. And more than willing, as I said, to admit that I don't know a darn thing.]
Herein lies my problem. I guess to some extent, many of those characteristics could be true of any generation. Wasn't Solomon "living in a material world"? Wasn't Lot sorry to leave his "community"? Gee whiz, I'm fairly certain that St. John of the Cross was "searching for the transcendent" when he wrote "Dark Night of the Soul".
And, what "minority" group has not at some time been skeptical and suspicious of authority"?
Pastor Ken, I'm just a simple gal. :-) But, I figure that people are people. Yeah, we're affected by the times we live in. But we are all created in the image of God. And we are all inflicted with the sin of Adam.
So, this still leaves me wondering...who are these "postmodern" folks we keep referring to???
I've read the articles, heard the theories and seen the stats. But I was still puzzled. So, I thought I'd ask someone from that generation. I'm not sure my son fits the "postmodern" definition, but he's 23; working; smart kid, but unfortunately has not gone to college (...yet...a mother can hope). He's also very sensitive and intuitive.
He will tell you that he is a Christian; and that he accepts Jesus as Lord and Saviour;he plays guitar and has written some beautiful songs with spiritual overones; yet, alas!, he hardly ever attends church.
I asked him why people of his generation often do not feel the need to connect with a church.
He pondered this for a while, then said: "We don't do things just because someone tells us its the thing to do. We don't care what people think. There has to be a reason and it has to have some meaning."
I think what he was saying to me is, "We are not hypocrites". Hmmm. I was intrigued.
He added that it seemed like most people in the church are going thru the motions and are not connected to the reason they are there--- namely, to worship God.
Perceptive kid, eh?
I would add to that a few observations. This "Postmodern" generation has not yet faced any global tragedies like a World War, major recession, etc. Although it may not be far off. Consider how many people turned to the Church following 9/11. In good times, as we are all aware, we may tend to drift away from our need to tap into the power of God.
They are also an "over-stimulated" generation, used to being entertained--big/flat screen T.V., ipods, Internet, video games, multi-media concerts w/ laser lights, etc. Frankly, when viewed as a "spectator sport", church can be "boring".
You mentioned T.V. shows being indicative of the culture. Consider the movies.
I enjoy movies with good dialogue.
Today, action movies seem to top the charts. Fast-paced, special effects, LOUD movies. Over-stimulation.
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Ken:
You asked:
2. What's wrong with re-evaluating, as a denomination, what you believe/teach?
Nothing! As long as we stay within the confines of what you say after you ask your question
My concern Felicia would be only if we were attempting to change the tenents of our faith.
Felicia:
I understand what you are saying. Yet, do you feel there IS an appropriate time/place to question the tenets of your faith? It may not be in the best interest of the CGGC to have those debates in a public forum, true. But consider that your denom is only 200 years old. And, was founded by a guy who was well, I suppose you could call him a "radical", who was locked out of his own church and removed from his denom. I'm guessing he may have questioned some of their own tenets.
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Ken:
I believe that the leaders of this movement are themselves postmoderns who have no allegiance to the historic church, and have not worked through the issues.
Felicia:
Pastor Ken, with all due respect, on what do you base this assumption? It sounds unfounded, as I've actually heard just the opposite position taken by other participants here---namely, wanting to look to the roots of the CGGC for insight into the heart of your founders. In fact, it sounds like there exists a suspicion that some liberties were taken early on with your "We Believe", and it might be prudent to examine that possibility more closely.
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Ken:
We cannot accept lock, stock, and barrel everything that we read.
Felicia:
And, no one is arguing that point.
Why do you all so blatantly underestimate each other? If I was a pastor in your church I would take offense at some of the comments made here--on both sides of the issue. It is not only implied but stated outright, that pastors are guilty of not caring to know the truth. That's a serious charge. Where is the evidence to support it?
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Ken:
The Emerging Church may have accurately pin-pointed that there is a generation of people out there that the traditional church has not reached. I am less than certain that they have understood why.
Felicia:
Yep! Agreed.
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Ken:
One of the reasons that I see that there is confusion in the postmodern generation is that they see the leaders of churches disagreeing among themselves. It isn't that is is wrong to ask the questions Felicia, I'm just not sure that it is appropriate in a public forum such as this.
Felicia:
And you may be right, Pastor Ken.
Disagreement among church members was the impetus for the founding of the CGGC, if I'm understanding your history correctly. How does it benefit the Body of Christ to start a new denom every time there's a disagreement? Wouldn't it be a more unifying move to discuss/debate within the denom and further develop your "We Believe" statement? It was, after all, not passed down from the heavens on stone tablets---having been written less than 50 years ago.
You say that you stand firm on Scripture, Pastor Ken. Well, I would hope that every Pastor, to a man, would say the same. So that's really not at issue. How you interpret that Scripture, is more to the point.
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Ken:
...but I believe that the church has instruction in Scripture as to how we deal with honest disagreements. We need to be united, and we need to have a very strong sense of what we believe (contra: Emerging church
Felicia:
Those statements sound almost contradictory. Can you explain how you can have honest disagreements, while united, and having a strong sense of what you believe????
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Ken:
In the end it is the whole church that must decide the direction that we are to go.
Felicia:
What form would that take?????
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Ken:
I believe instead that it is far more likely that we have not understood ourselves what "We Believe." We have been guilty of not practicing what we preach. I'm not sure that our practices are completely in line with our theology.
Felicia:
You may have hit on something here, but not necessarily in the CGGC. Many prominent evangelicals and clergy of other faiths, have taken a "nosedive" in public in recent times. It certainly added to the disillusionment of this new generation.
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Ken:
You asked:
4. What questions are post-moderns asking that the Church isn't prepared to answer?
Here are some of what I believe are the answer to your question:
1. Who am I?
2. Why am I here?
3. Why does the church presume to have the right answers to my questions?
4. Why should I be willing to trust anybody in a position of authority?
5. What is truth?
6. Is all of this life just an illusion?
7) Is that your personal interpretation?
8) Why should you have authority over me?
... there is no question that these are questions that the church should( Felicia's note:I assume you meant "should" and corrected the typo) be prepared to answer, and we can. But only from within the confines of Faith and Scripture and how the Holy Spirit interprets it.
Felicia:
Ay, there's the rub! Who decides "how the Holy Spirit interprets it"? Isn't that what much of this is about? A difference in interpretation amongst a group of learned, sincere, devoted, Spirit-filled men of God?
How are the people listed below, more qualified than those who participate on this blog to construct or re-evaluate the "We Believe"? :
"The General Conference Commission on Education extends deep appreciation to representatives from local conferences, Findlay College , Winebrenner Theological Seminary, the Administrator and Associates in Ministry, writers of various sections and drafts, those who contributed editorial skills and many who shared input to prepare this document. Their attention to the guidance of the Holy Spirit and their love for God's Church are evident in these pages. We particularly thank these persons:
Walter D. Allen, Robert W. Douglas, Herbert L. Hogue, Paul E. Anderson, Thomas Douglas, G. Gordon Jenkins, Elmer A. Armstrong, David E. Draper, Michael E. Johnson, Katherine Baker, Linda M. Draper, Royal P. Kear R. Neal Barnett, Ralph L. Draper, Sterling C. Keeney, Dean L. Baublitz, A. Gail Dunn, G. Richard Kern, Glenn E. Beatty, Stephen L. Dunn, Marilyn R. Kern, Duane L. Beck, Arthur E. Eakin, Robert D. King, Harold C. Beck, Robert Ewald, David M. Lakins, John R. Beckler, Everett L. Falk, Fred J. Landolt, Robert M. Bistline, Donald D. Flaherty, George E. Leonard, Virgil G. Blosser, Daniel A. Fortney, Kent Maxwell, James H. Booser, W. D. Garrison, William J. McBride, Kenneth E. Boldosser, E. Fidelia Gilbert, Lynn D. McCallum, Paul Chisholm, Doyle C. Ginn, Collett Q. McMillion, Joel W. Cocklin, J. Harvey Gossard, L. Joe Miller,Paul C. Cordel,l E. David Green, William G. Milligan, Dean Cox James, S. Grove James, L. Monticue, Owen Custer, Wayne L. Heffner, Nellie Moran,Frank L. Demmy, Charles E. Hilliard, Michael D. Murrell, Richard L. Dosh, R. David Hogue, Herbert F. Myers, Jon R. Neely, Oscar C. Schultz, Jr., Ted VanderEnde, Kenneth E. Nitchman, George M. Showers, Richard R. VanHorn, Douglas E. Nolt, Lawrence Showers, Ralph V. Vunderink, John A. Parthemore, Ruth I. Showers, Raeburn G. Wallen, Jr. Earl M. Sleasman, Paul D. Walters, James Pelowsk,i Charles F. Smith, Edward T. Watson, C. Darrell Prichard, Keith Snyder, George E. Weaver, Frederick C. Quade, Larry Stutzman, Neville H. West, Keith L. Raderstorf, Melvin H. Summ,y Larry G. White, William H. Reist, Edward Taylor, Richard E. Wilkin, George Reser, Jr. Lester P. Thornton, Lawrence E. Winick, James L. Resseguie, Sidney C. Tiffin, Ivan H. Wood, Marsha Rockey, Ned J. Tobias, Walter B. Zimmerman, A. Wayne Rogers, Frank True "
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Ken:
That is the best I can do, I hope I have been of some help. There may be some others on this blog of an entirely diiferent opinion, you will just have to hear what they say.
Felicia;
Pastor Ken, thank you for dialoguing with me. As I said, I find this topic thought-provoking, and am sure it will continue to become more relevant as this new culture unfolds.
In His Love,
Felicia
I am certainly not any kind of an expert on postmodernism. I appreciate the questions Felicia raised, and also the comments from Ken & Brent. I tend to agree with Felicia that Graham's description of postmodern's is not very nice - and I don't think very accurate.
The simplest and barest of definitions I have seen for the term "postmodern" is by a blogger named Grace. She says a postmodern is someone "not troubled by unanswered questions." I realize that leaves a lot of gaps, but I like the idea. I believe, to a large degree, they are okay with the mystery of God - things that simply cannot be explained. And it completely turns them off to people who try to explain these things (giving answers they're not asking) through dogmatic statements as though they're fact, when the truth is they are nothing but beliefs that may or may not be fact. It doesn't deny "The Truth", but denies that a raging lunatic might know what it is. So what doesn't make sense is that they don't understand why people spend countless hours arguing over it, when there is much more that could be being done.
I was talking with my son last night who is a sophomore at a Christian college and is majoring in Bible & Religion; he also has a blog entitled "the Postmodern Beat." He says hardly anyone he knows even knows anything about the emerging church, because people his age are already leary of it - even moreso than evangelicals. As emerging was a reaction to evangelical, new monasticism is a reaction to emerging. He said almost everyone he knows talks about how they dislike their church, so he asked in class one day just how many felt disillusioned with church, and almost everyone raised their hand.
I don't have an answer here, but I at least think we can surmise that these people could really give a crap about our statements of faith. And I REALLY don't think it helps anyone involved if we're going to call them heretics and losers!! Hmm... I wonder why they're disillusioned?
I would say maybe they're 'not troubled by unanswered questions', but more troubled by the fact that no one seems to be able to live what they say they believe. That's why they love Jesus, and loved Mother Teresa, and Shane Claiborne... And we keep trying to TELL them stuff.
You know, again - I don't know much of anything - but I don't know that we really need to freak out about the changes taking place in the church. I mean, when you think about what a traditional church looks like today - or, lets say a traditional worship service - where do you find that in the Bible? I think "church" in the future is going to look way different than anything any of us sees now... and I don't know that that's a bad thing. I think we're pretty naive to think that we could actually screw something up that Jesus built (and is building).
Just my 2 cents.
Felicia,
I appreciate your insights.
I don't know what your perception is of all this (hard to know online without conversing face to face), but we would agree more than we disagree.
You ask a very profound question concerning postmodernism. You go right to the validity of it all.
Since I have heard of it and started reading about it, my question is and continues to be:
Is this generation all that different from any other?
I gave you someone else's definition of postmodernism. I will not give you my own. My definition would not focus on the principals involved in the generation, it would focus on the one's who have been instrumental in bring the generation to the place that they are.
The question that must be asked is:
Why is this generation like they are?
The answer to that question will go a long way toward dealing with some of the other points that you raised. You are perceptive. But you would do better directing those questions at other people on this blog, or in the church. The questions that you raise are some of the very same ones I have.
Here is the issue, it remains unchanged for me, I will borrow your words if you don't mind,
"We are all created in the image of God. And we are all inflicted with the sin of Adam."
You hit it right on the nail kid (by the way, I'm a kid too).
I am presently preaching through the book of Eclesiastes and I would add some of his thoughts to what you said:
1:4 One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth forever...
1:10 Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us...
I am very soundly and solidly of the opinion that this generation is just like every other generation. I do believe however that they have been told alot of things about themselves, and some of it they have started to believe. Remember: This is the generation that was involved in Columbine, and at Virginia Tech. They are what they are and there is a whole lot of people and technology that has helped them to get where they are.
And it hasn't necessarily had anything to do with what they would have believed from the church.
A question that I have that keeps slapping me in the face as I work through all of this is:
Why do we presume to think that we have to redesign the theology of the church around this generation? Another thought I keep having is "Boy, if I were Satan, I couldn't have come up with a better ploy to undermine the church than that."
As far as your questions about Pastors, I am not going to comment on that. I have formed my opinions on my studying, my Bible reading (which is quite intense), studying church history where the opportunity presents itself in my exegesis, and so forth. I also keep up and read extensively literature that deals with leadership in the church. I listen to people that I don't agree with and determine what drives them in the directions that they are pursuing. What I have come to see at this point is an impression that has formed within me. I am working on my doctoral thesis which is appropriately done under the track: "The Preacher and the Message" If you want to know more about my fully developed ideas in this area, I will invite you to read that.
And in signing off here this morning, I appreciate the names that you were willing to put that contributed to the production of "We Believe. Godly people, I believe, all. What makes them more capable? (as you asked) I can only give you what amounts to a brief example (I believe I can pull this off without directly offending anyone):
About three months ago on this blog, there was a (what I would guess) podcast by Brian MaClaren. Brian McLaren discusses the "liberating yet disturbing message from Jesus about living in the Kingdom of God."
I gotta tell you Felicia, it was well done. Very convincing actually, as you listen to him (soft music and soft voice all) he can be pretty compelling.
The problem that I see was,
Was he correct biblically in his assertation?
He questioned whether the purpose of Jesus dying for us was rooted in our going to heaven, or whether it was to help us understand how the kingdom of heaven can happen on earth while we are here.
First problem: He presumed to prove his point by taking portions of the Lord's prayer out of context. Pretty subtle actually, he used just enough of what I call "guiltingness" and a little bit of eisogesis to make his point.
But the bottom line: Was his assertation correct?
Within the whole context of Scripture we know these things (generalized and specific):
1. When God brought the Children of Israel out of the land of Egypt, He did it with an eye toward settling them "In the promised land. (a land flowing with milk and honey)" He told them that He would do that so long as they "obeyed His Word" Did God bring the children of Israel out of bondage so that they could build the kingdom of God on earth? Not according to Joshua, in chapter 24, verses 19-20, 22, he tells them this:
"Ye cannot serve the LORD: for he is an holy God; He is a jealous God; He will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins. If ye forsake the Lord and serve other Gods, then He will turn and do you hurt, and consume you, after he hath done you good.
V. 22) "Ye are witnesses against yourselves that ye have chosen you the Lord, to seve Him. And they said, We are witnesses."
As history would play out, Joshua was absolutely right.
There was never any chance that God would build the kingdom in Israel. It was doomed from the beginning. And when the people became apostate, what did God do? He threw them out of the land. Sounds like God puts a bigger premium on whether we are deserving to be in "the land flowing with milk and honey" than Brian MaClaren does.
As a Christian studies these things today, "the land flowing with milk and honey" is synonomous with eternity (Gr. the ages).
That is just a general example from the Old Testament though,
Brian uses the Lord's prayer to make his point. He fails to understand from the Scriptures how it is that the kingdom of God is in the world today.
It is in the church. And it is only in operation after people have submitted themselves to the will of God (repented) and purposed within themselves to make God's program, their program, from the Scriptures.
The Lord's prayer was given to us not with the aim of demonstrating to anyone that salvation has anything to do with going to heaven, it was given to us with the aim of teaching us how to pray. One of the aspects of the prayer is: "Thy kingdom come." As we go on and read: The kingdom will come after God's will is done, on earth as it is in heaven.
Scripture clearly bears out from the Old Testament to the New, that will not happen in this age. Sin will always be a barrier except in that place where God chooses to put His name, i.e. the Church.
Now does that mean that we shouldn't have a kingdom mindset? By no means. We are supposed to be salt, and light, and fulfill the commission that Jesus gave to us, "Go, teach, baptizing them." But should we presume that the kingdom is going to set up shop in this world? Scripture doesn't bear that out.
Specific quotations to help us understand what the goal of God is for us in salvation:
1. Read the parable of the ten virgins in Matt. 25
2. John 18:36 My kingdom is not of this world....
3. 1 Corinthians 15 "I declare.. the gospel..By which you are saved, if you keep in memory what I preached unto you unless you have believed in VAIN... And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. But if in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable."
Sounds like Paul is more worried about our getting to heaven than Brian MaClaren.
4. 1 Cor 15:51-58 ...But thanks be to God, which giveth us the VICTORY through our Lord Jesus Christ.
What is the victory? Why it is the knowledge that we shall all be raised and forever with the Lord.
5. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 ... Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. WHEREFORE COMFORT ONE ANOTHER WITH THESE WORDS.
6. Revelation 21:1-27, 22:1-5
These are just a few Scriptures that would seem to give a different perspective than what our friend Brian does.
Now, my point?
In the posts following this podcast?? (I'm not sure if that's what it was), no one challenged this.
Do they believe what he says completely? I don't know, but the only one who seemed to be troubled by it was Phil, and if I had known about this blog at that time, my sentiments would have echoed his. What's new here (concerning our duties as kingdom citizens, by the way-We know how we are to be citizens of the kingdom if we read "We Believe") but again I ask, where is the discernment. MaClaren's teaching can lead us all as "do-goodders" to pantheism. (by the way, he is leading toward a liberal works-based theology). There was a quote on the web: I believe it was by a guy by the name of Ken Silva, he had a quote that I agree with, and I had known what he was talking about before I read it. It is this: "The emerging church theology is nothing more than liberal theology wrapped up in evangelical garb." We as Pastors and leaders of our denomination cannot be seen to be lending any kind of endorsements to ideologies that will lead our sheep away.
Do you see where I'm coming from Felicia? Again, this isn't about any specific people, We must guard diligently what we believe. We must hold to "Good words" or sound dogma. We do not need to wonder whether false teachers are out there (even well-meaning ones), or even presume that because we all like each other we don't have to guard against them; because the Scripture tells us that they are there, and Christ in his Word madates that we guard against them.
Again I say it, and I hope it can be understood: I am not afraid of change, but before we do:
1. Why are we changing?
2. Are the circumstances that seem to be telling us to change really what they put themselves out to be?
3. Exactly what is it that we are, or should have been doing that is wrong, Which necessitates a change?
Interesting conversation sister:
Ken Zitsch
Oops. In the third paragraph of my previous comment I said people my son hangs with are leary of the emerging church "even moreso than evangelicals." That should say "even moreso OF evangelicals."
And, Ken, I have to say, you saying that a post about Brian McLaren is the reason for thinking we're worthless is pretty lame. I actually think it's people who feel they need to argue with and defend every little thing they read that drives more people away from the church than anything. But that's just my opinion.
I'm preparing to leave and be away from internet access for a few days - just in case anyone responds and it seems I'm ignoring you.
peace & blessings.
This comment has been removed by the author.
Guys,
I think it bears repeating what I said above:
"You and I have a responsibility to see to our own faith... It is not for me to see to the faith of my peers in ministry. Maybe someday (Lord willing), He will lead me to the opportunity to teach Pastors, but at this point it isn't my calling to cause division. It is my responsibilty to challenge in individual instances where the opportunity is present. But, I will not be a source of division. And, quite honestly for me, it does not matter who you are. In the end, the only one whom I would be afraid of answering too, is God."
I think we need to get past the defensive mentality I see and deal with the issues in the posts.
There was nothing said calling anybody "worthless."
And the was nothing said about anybody's credentials.
Goodness knows, it there is anybody who is the least to be considered in this position, it is me.
Gentlemen, what about the point I made. And please don't tell me that this is just one post from Brian MaClaren. That would be to insult my intelligence by insinuating that I just pick some random thing and harp on it. That article was just the first one I found working my way back. My point was... we have a responsibility to question these sorts of things. I am just one person in the CGGC guys, and I gotta tell you, I'm pretty open minded (as strange as it may seem), but when I see those kinds of points made on a blog called "EmergingCGGC", and I see theology such as what was expoused there go unchallenged, it raises the hackles on my neck. We are not dealing with some small issue here. We are dealing with the nature of salvation and how God brings us to it. Here is the bottom line, if I can't be convinced (as open minded as I am), how do you purpose to convince anyone? I'm sure there are those out there who are alot more worried about these kinds of things than me.
Take it for what its worth.
Ken Zitsch
cI'm currently in Haiti and read some of the comments but not all, but wanted to let Ken know that if the leaders of this Denomination ask me officially to end this discussion, I will. I do submit to the leadership. And I also know they read this. So in the name of submission to the denomination, we can consider this issue and conversation viable unless I am told different.
The only direction I have gotten from General Conference leadership has been to continue this forum, not on this specific issue, but in general.
So the existence of this blog/forum is not in any sense subverting the denomination but is in fact continuing because of a request from them.
Brian,
Just curious brother?
Where did I ever ask for that kind of clarification?
Where did I ever ask you to justify the existence of this blog?
Quite honestly I would have assumed that to be the case knowing that you are using the logos and I believe that there is a statement on the front page saying something about this being approved.
I am also sure it says something to the extent that the views given here do not necessarily reflect those of the denomination's.
You directed your last comments to me and quite honestly I was surprised because I can't see where I raised any issues like that at all.
Help me out here brother?
Ken Zitsch
Ken,
Since you've restated this paragraph twice, I guess I'll respond.
Your words:
"You and I have a responsibility to see to our own faith... It is not for me to see to the faith of my peers in ministry. Maybe someday (Lord willing), He will lead me to the opportunity to teach Pastors, but at this point it isn't my calling to cause division. It is my responsibilty to challenge in individual instances where the opportunity is present. But, I will not be a source of division. And, quite honestly for me, it does not matter who you are. In the end, the only one whom I would be afraid of answering too, is God."
I completely agree that I will be held accountable by God for my own beliefs. There is definitely an individual dimension to our faith.
But what you write strikes me erring on the side of interpretation that can fall into "You belief what you want and I'll believe what I want. Why does it matter anyway? God is the judge..." I know that isn't what you said. And I am NOT trying to put words into your mouth. I am simply saying that your statement is pointed in that direction.
One of the difficulties that is present in this particular blog discussion has to do with the assumptions that are being made about how we arrive at particular interpretations of scripture.
I will openly admit that I am deeply influenced by 20th century philosophers who addressed concerns related to hermeneutics (Hans-Georg Gadamer, Paul Ricoeur, etc.). But in the same way, your interpretation strikes me as being deeply influenced by an Enlightenment sense of individuality.
If we don't have responsibility for each other, who does? In some ways I think division is present here because you may not feel enough responsiblity for others present.
This is not to say that you will be held accountable for what I believe. But it does mean that we arrive at an understanding of scripture together.
Back to the Jesus as written word vs. person conversation from last week. Many churches (I'm not suggesting you fall into this category, but if the shoe fits...) believe and have actively taught that if a person goes to a "quiet place" (alone) an accurate understanding of scripture is possible. I agree with what you earlier: "You can't learn in a vacuum if you want to be effective in your ministry to unbelievers." Jesus, as a person, always leads us into relationships with others. This includes how we come to an understanding of his written word.
To borrow Karl Barth's phrase, we have to understand theology with one eye on the daily paper and one eye in the Bible.
I think that I can speak for some here when I say that biblical interpretation has a communal dimension to it. It does not happen in a vacuum.
This is why I push you (and others) to be blunt about their disagreements - who are they with, what are they, etc. Don't try to generalize.
An active and healthy public sphere stays that we because we engage in dialogue from a given standpoint. I'm not asking you to change your mind when I engage you. But I am asking you to be up front about what you believe and the people with whom you disagree. Both are necessary. If a person simply takes random pot shots at others without identifying the opposing side, no true conversation is possible.
One other thought - if we care so much about theology and proper biblical interpretation (which I believe we all do) why not have a "theological war"? We fight over lesser things. If we're going to have a major disagreement at least lets make it about something that matters.
Just my early morning thoughts.
Brent,
I expected to read something here on this blog this morning that was going to frustrate me again (for the last time) and cause me to force myself to do the honorable thing and help it find its way to the recycle bin.
I am encouraged by your post. Finally, someone seems to want to openly admit here that there just might be theological issues that need to be worked through. You are my buddy Brent :-)
That is why I used the video of Brian MaClaren as I did. There are things that he said there which would dramatically impact (even substantially) change the way we do ministry in the Churches of God.
It is kinda disheartening when I see the people here, instead of engaging the issues, rather resorting to what I see at times as patronizing me or insulting my intelligence.
You said Brent and I completely agree:
"I think that I can speak for some here when I say that biblical interpretation has a communal dimension to it. It does not happen in a vacuum."
It follows then that if anyone here is going to seek to change the foundations of what I believe, or what "We Believe", you are going to have to give good cause why. And here is the deal for anyone that is taking note on this blog:
It isn't going to be enough for anyone to come along to me and say, "Pastor Ken, this needs to change just because you can't possibly think that things need to remain static."
I do not subscribe to that edition of whatever it is that you are reading.
The only thing that I need to change is once in awhile, my wife makes me change the baby's diaper.
Now I grant you that I do not speak for all. But if you cannot work with me and do me the decency of at least showing me how the changes that you would like to initiate keeps us attached to our original theological moors, than I will be right there on the conference floor leading or following in the way to defeat you.
I do not consider unanswered questions a virtue. I am not interested in any mysteries. I do not believe in those things at all. I believe that the Church has answers, and I believe that the Church has authority over people's lives. I believe that the Church has a responsibility to pursue people for the kingdom, but I do not believe that the Church (just like Jesus) needs to adjust its program around any generation no matter what their circumstances. Jesus did not answer everybody's questions, but as best as I can tell, the only reason that He did not was because He recognized situations where repentance was not or could not be present; it was only when He knew that He was dealing with hardened hearts.
In the interest of full disclosure, it is not enough for anybody to come along and try to tell me that they are "emerging" and yet I am just supposed to believe (out of the charity of my heart) that they are in no way in line with some other almost heretical "prophets" who incidently lead movements with the same name. Please do not bother to try to differentiate for me "emergent" versus "emerging".
You may not believe in very much of what those so-called false prophets believe, but if not, you have a responsibility to delineate yourselves, what do you believe? Remember, this is all of our community, not just yours.
We are Pastors and Church leaders here. We might need to minister to "Postmoderns", but we cannot presume to be in the dark about any of our beliefs. I went to seminary and I remember my theology Prof. saying quite clearly, "Everybody has a theology that they operate from." If you are a part of my community, and there is no doubt that you are, you are going to have to find a way to articulate that theology. Elsewise, you will not find me at your side.
If you cannot handle the heat guys, you need to get out of the kitchen.
One other thing that occurred to me as I finished this post, Brent,
You said,
"One of the difficulties that is present in this particular blog discussion has to do with the assumptions that are being made about how we arrive at particular interpretations of scripture."
I continually hear the Enlightenment beaten down for the way that it has caused us to interpret Scripture. The fact is, I am not interested in going back wholesale to any pre-Enlightenment interpretations of Scripture. First f all, what has happened since the Enlightenment has only made clearer what was believed back then, and anything that might have been crooked at that time made straight. I grant you that there are some (and only that-a few) interpretations of Scripture that may find difficulty in demonstrating Biblical support, but I do not believe that we need to presume that the Enlightenment was just a mistaken period in history either.
All history Brent is God's History. And here's the deal: God works all things together for good for those who love Him and are called according to His purpose. Providence has been and continues to be at work in this world. We do not need to call into question History, and I'm not interested in who interpreted it. The facts of history remain unchanged. Nepoleon was defeated at Waterloo, Martin Luther nailed the thesis on the door because of corruption. I have yet to see anybody seriously deal with the issue of God's purposes in the Enlightenment. Could it be that it was God's will to cause use to LOGICALLY understand the things that we do?
In any case, you can now know about me, I will not be embracing any full-scale postmodern mindsets.
Ken Zitsch
Ken,
A quick distinction before I get back to work -
On the Enlightenment:
I agree with you that we cannot completely criticze the Enlightenment and all of the advancements that came out of that time. In fact, the problem we may be exploring on this blog may deal more with the process of how we reach a particular interpretation as opposed to that interpretation itself.
I usually err on the side of content trumping process, but in this case I think much of our (the blog's) conversation isn't about content. I'm not disputing the accuracy or understanding of the texts you have presented. Our disagreements may be about the process by which we reach a particular understanding.
Just like you have shared your academic training, many of us here are well-read/trained on this topic. I won't provide a bibliography unless it's helpful to you, but it's not just my opinion that the Enlightenment project failed. It's my well researched opinion. There's a major difference.
As we look toward the future, could there be a better way to interpret that isn't based upon the Enlightenment's trust in individualism? Perhaps it's best to say here that a new way may be *emerging* from the dust of the 20th century.
Brent,
I haven't thought it through all that completely, but maybe I will have too before the end of my project. In any case may I say to you now, I do not hold to an individualistic interpretation of faith or interpreting scripture.
I do believe very strongly that Scripture is interpreted by the community of faith. And I am not one who believes in any way that "what I want to believe is what I believe, and what you want to believe is what you believe. Brent my friend, that is unscriptural.
There is no way in the world that anybody can make the argument to me that our decisions and actions do not affect anybody else. That goes for me into the secular realm as well as the church. It just doesn't hold water according to my worldview (In the beginning, God, created the heavens and the earth).
So you are right and I concur with you wholeheartedly. I would be interested in reading some of what you have about the enlightenment. I have a rather sticky view that probably finds alot of its logic in what I read years ago from Francis Schaeffer. My chief problem today is that sometimes I get the impression that history is being reinterpreted by some who have fallen below what Schaeffer called "line of Despair."
Your friend and brother
ken
dan h. said...
The simplest and barest of definitions I have seen for the term "postmodern" is ... someone "not troubled by unanswered questions."
Felicia:
Interesting. If the search for answers to the tough questions is of no value, do they also buy into relative truth?
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Dan:
I believe, to a large degree, they are okay with the mystery of God - things that simply cannot be explained.
Felicia:
Hasn't the church always accepted God as a God of mystery, at least to some degree?
How is this new?
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Dan:
...through dogmatic statements as though they're fact, when the truth is they are nothing but beliefs that may or may not be fact.
Felicia:
If you do not believe that your dogmatic statements are true interpretations of Scripture, and therefore "fact", why would you declare them as dogma in the first place????
To give no credence to your church's doctrine is to build your faith on sand and offer to the world a watered-down Gospel.
This is exactly what I referenced in my earlier post---and something I feel very strongly about. Pastors need to preach authoritatively, not tentatively. Without firm church doctrine, how can you be sure that what you are passionately declaring from the pulpit today won't be changed tomorrow?
I would have nothing to do with a church that was unsure of its doctrine.
Pastor Dan, did the Apostles go out into the world preaching "well, this is what we believe, but it may or may not be fact"?
NO! A thousand times no!
And this is precisely why the emergent "doctrine", or lack thereof, is an insidious plague on the church.
"ooze" is actually an appropriate title for their site.
I take issue with much of what Pastor Ken says, but I stand with him on this. In terms of doctrinal purity, the Holy Spirit guides His Church to all truth---NOT each individual.
***Felicia steps down off her soap box and stashes it away ****
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Dan:
... so he asked in class one day just how many felt disillusioned with church, and almost everyone raised their hand.
Felicia:
Disturbing.
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Dan:
...but more troubled by the fact that no one seems to be able to live what they say they believe. That's why they love Jesus, and loved Mother Teresa, and Shane Claiborne...
Felicia:
Agreed. That is definitely a factor. Between the ability of modern technology to put the news in front of our eyes within seconds of when it occurs, and the media's delight in slamming Christians--- when Church leaders fall, they fall hard and loudly.
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Dan:
I think "church" in the future is going to look way different than anything any of us sees now... and I don't know that that's a bad thing.
Felicia:
Pastor Dan, I'd be interested to hear what differences you foresee. Are you talking in terms of how the worship service itself will be revised or do you predict an entirely new concept of "church".
Also, how is what you are doing now not Scriptural?
*********************************
Dan:
I think we're pretty naive to think that we could actually screw something up that Jesus built (and is building).
Felicia:
I was about to agree with you when I suddenly changed my mind. (hey, I'm allowed---I'm a woman)
We have already screwed things up royally---all thru the ages. Yet Jesus continues to fix our mistakes and build on.
"...and the gates of hell..."
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Dan:
Just my 2 cents.
Felicia:
Worth at least a buck twenty-five. ;-)
You've made several interesting points, Pastor Dan, that are worth pursuing. I'm also willing to admit that I know nothing, and I hope I didn't offend.
Peace,
Felicia Swavely
Ken:
The question that must be asked is:
Why is this generation like they are?
Felicia:
It would be interesting to hear input from the others on that question.
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Ken:
I am very soundly and solidly of the opinion that this generation is just like every other generation.
Felicia:
Maybe not "just like", but similar in some very basic characteristics: we all need a sense of acceptance and belonging; we all need someone to listen to our "story"; we all need to feel secure--physically and emotionally; and within each of us exists a longing to know God, whether we identify it as such, or not.
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Ken:
Why do we presume to think that we have to redesign the theology of the church around this generation?
Felicia:
I've asked the same question. And I'm trying to understand those that say that is not at all what the emergent church is about. They say it's about reaching out to postmoderns in a way that connects with them.
If that's the case, why do we need this thing called the "emergent conversation"? Why don't we just hire marketing experts? (not totally said tongue-in-cheek)
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RE: "The Preacher and the Message"
I'd love to read it--how could I do that?
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Ken:
Again I say it, and I hope it can be understood: I am not afraid of change, but before we do:
1. Why are we changing?
2. Are the circumstances that seem to be telling us to change really what they put themselves out to be?
3. Exactly what is it that we are, or should have been doing that is wrong, Which necessitates a change?
Felicia:
(I can't comment on the McLaren podcast as I have not yet been able to view it--slow computer)
These are good questions, Pastor Ken. I would add a few:
4. WHO is qualified to be involved in the decision-making process?
5. Have we prayed and fasted enough; and do we hear the voice of the Holy Spirit driving us toward these changes?
6. What heresy is developing in the church that needs to be refuted?
God bless you, Pastor Ken. I don't always agree with you, but I admire your passion.
Peace,
Felicia Swavely
Brent said:
"One other thought - if we care so much about theology and proper biblical interpretation (which I believe we all do) why not have a "theological war"?
What if Winebrenner had stayed in the German Reformed Church and fought, rather than being instrumental in founding the CGGC?
Is it more Scriptural to champion reform from the inside--- or strike out on your own???
Peace,
Felicia Swavely
Felicia,
You ask some tremendous questions, and your observations are perceptive.
even though you might not agree with me on everything, that's okay, because I am not arrogant enough to think that I've got everything right. I just try to do the best I can with what I got. I try to hold to the Scriptures, and as the old saying goes, "I don't have all the answers, but I know the one who does."
It says in Scripture that Jesus preached and taught with authority and He is our example to follow.
But the important thing is that we keep seeking for the answers, He will take care of the rest.
And we must never allow ourselves to think that the answers are not to be found.
God may have reasons for preventing us (He is sovereign), but I do not believe that is cause for us not to continue pursuing truth.
God bless
Ken Zitsch
Ken:
About three months ago on this blog, there was a (what I would guess) podcast by Brian MaClaren. Brian McLaren discusses the "liberating yet disturbing message from Jesus about living in the Kingdom of God."
Felicia:
I finally got to view the video, with a little help from my techno-savy son. :-)
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Ken:
I gotta tell you Felicia, it was well done. Very convincing actually, as you listen to him (soft music and soft voice all) he can be pretty compelling.
Felicia:
Yeah, smooth. But, personally, he doesn't appeal to me. I have enough of a pride issue to find him condescending. I recognize that's just me. :-)
*****************************
Ken:
The problem that I see was,
Was he correct biblically in his assertation?
Felicia:
Well, here's the thing, he is and he's not. I don't take issue with him for the same reason you do though, Pastor Ken.
The Kingdom of God exists in perfection with God and His angels and saints in heaven. It came to earth in the Person of Jesus Christ. The Kingdom still exists on earth, albeit imperfectly, in the Church, as you stated. And it will come into its fullness at the end of time when the Church on earth is joined in perfect communion with the Church in heaven.
Support for the fact that we can even now approach the Kingdom is found in Hebrews 12: 18-29 which references the "unshakable kingdom" which we "are receiving".
*******************************
Ken:
MaClaren's teaching can lead us all as "do-goodders" to pantheism. (by the way, he is leading toward a liberal works-based theology).
Do you see where I'm coming from Felicia?
Felicia:
Here's where we see things a bit differently, Pastor Ken.
McLaren isn't preaching a "works based theology:, at least not in this video. He's acting as though he just discovered Matthew 25. As if!
Do you know how long I've been hearing sermons on Matthew 25? "whatsoever you do to the least of these...." Is it really news that we are to serve Jesus in the least of our brothers? Is this the first we are hearing that we are to love our enemies and care for the poor? Who was Mclaren talking to? Martians?
No, not works-based theology. McLaren doesn't even connect the dots from charity to salvation. He doesn't reference salvation AT ALL. And that's the heresy wrapped in the warm fuzzy little package.
Mclaren states that Jesus' PRIMARY reason for being is to teach us how to live out the kingdom of God here on earth.
Did anyone else just hear the sound of John 3:16 being flushed down the Emergent drain????
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
Why did God "primarily" send His Son? To teach us how to live in the Kingdom? No.
"...should not perish, but have everlasting life".
If there is still any doubt, look at what Jesus prays in John 17: 1-2
"These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
Jhn 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
Jhn 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
This is why some in the forefront of the emergent movement cannot be trusted. They take a kernel of untruth and wrap it all up in a nice package.
Scripture clearly tells us that God's plan from the beginning of time was for Jesus to die on the cross for our sins so that we may have eternal life.
If Jesus came primarily to teach us how to love one another, He would not have had to suffer and die. He could have just washed our feet.
McLaren insults my intelligence.
Peace,
Felicia Swavely
Felicia,
"If Jesus came primarily to teach us how to love one another, He would not have had to suffer and die. He could have just washed our feet.
McLaren insults my intelligence."
Well said, we really don't have a disagreement at all.
Going back to the original premise that was made setting off these 65 posts,
You are very close to the reason why I cannot except Winebrenner's rationale for feetwashing over Forney's.
The bottom line for me is that if you wash feet just to be humble to your brother, that is a good thing, it may even be a praiseworthy thing; but an ordinance has to be based on an event in the LORD's life that has salvific significance for us. Ordinances are not intended to display our day to day morality, they are intended to witness to the acts of our LORD in saving us from sin.
You said what you did in precisely the same way I tried to say it. You probably said it a little gentler coming at it in a different scriptural direction, but those ideas that you expressed are precisely my sentiments.
This is why I am giving serious consideration to unhooking myself from this blog. I just don't consider it a very effective way of communicating. To often I find yourself clarifying what I intended to say instead of dealing with the issues.
There is a significant communication gap.
but I find your thoughts refreshing, and they really are not that different from mine.
Ken Zitsch
Ken,
You wrote:
"This is why I am giving serious consideration to unhooking myself from this blog. I just don't consider it a very effective way of communicating. To often I find yourself clarifying what I intended to say instead of dealing with the issues."
A few things to consider:
It's too easy to say that the disagreements here are due to a "communication gap." We never are 100% successful at communicating. While I agree that written communication (email, blogs, etc.) has limitations, so do other forms of interaction as well.
Give this some thought. Maybe the need for clarification comes from the fact that there is a diversity of opinion on this blog. You can't assume that we all understand "what you mean" when you write theological terms (incarnation, etc.).
I could be very wrong but my guess is that you spend much of your time as a pastor with people who think like you. That's not a bad thing. Of course they challenge you, they disagree with you, and some flat out don't believe what you say. But, coming from a similar geographic area with similar religious and cultural traditions allows them to have a better understanding of your perspective.
Don't back away from this blog because of communication problems. Leave because your faith has been compromised. Leave because you don't have time to dedicate to the discussions. Leave because you no longer care about the topics discussed.
But in my opinion, if you leave because of a perceived "communication gap" you are choosing not to engage others in their opinions - the very accusation you make about people here on the blog.
Brent,
You said:
"But in my opinion, if you leave because of a perceived "communication gap" you are choosing not to engage others in their opinions - the very accusation you make about people here on the blog."
Ouch!
Okay dude,
you win the day on that respect.
I see what you said as reinforcement in conjunction with something that I'm seeing n T.V. here this a.m. (concerning the violence of Muslims, Christians, and Jews over the centuries).
I just have to do a better job of differentiating between people and their ideas. It is a little difficult because I see that people borrow their ideas, a little here, a little there. Francis Schaeffer talked about the "Hegelian Dialectic" Thesis-antithesis-synthesis, and that really is so much a part of our culture today.
I'm not sure however that people are as free to formulate new ideas as they think. I see more and more, the preacher's wisdom when he implies that there isn't anything "new" that develops in this world. That is really at the root of my fear in all this emerging church stuff. To be honest with you Brent, I really do believe we are looking at "our tomorrow" in all of this stuff. I believe that it is coming upon us like an avalanche. At the root of it all is an ideology that I perceive (I can't really articulate it clearly) that is going to change the church in ways that we don't even suspect at this point in time. Just for the record: I don't think it is going to be good.
I don't really believe it can be forstalled. My opinion in that respect is a result of what I see of this generation's (as well as the past few's) seeming disinterest in picking up the Bible and resolving themselves to get to the heart of the message in it.
That is a problem that I don't really believe that we will be able to overcome.
But you are right. I need to stay engaged, because in the end, I've got to do my part. It is the ideas that I must focus on, not the people. I will keep myself in the uncomfortable position that I am and just try to converse more effectively. Focusing on ideas and disengaging them from the people that are formulating them.
Thanks for your insights
Ken Zitsch
Gang,
I'm back from a restful vacation. I didn't have wireless service and am now STUNNED to see how much activity there has been on this thread.
I'll try to digest what's been said and try to determine where the conversation has gone.
For now, I'll merely say this:
Lew,
You should not have deleted your comment on the 27th. (I have it in an email.)
You are correct. No one here has suggested that "...we should redesign "We Believe" for the postmodern generation." That comment needs to be made and acknowledged by everyone in this conversation.
This thread has produced much more heat than light--compared to other conversations this blog has hosted in the past.
I will take that as an indication that there is immense love for Truth among those who post here.
Ken,
As far as your desire to see others join your critique of Brian McLaren here is concerned:
I, for one, have written numerous posts and have entered several topics on this blog that were critical of McLaren. And, for the most part, the others who join in this conversation agreed with ME when I did that.
My sense is that, in the CGGC community that blogs here and shares a passion for the salvation of lost postmoderns, there is a recognition that McLaren is a leading voice in "Emergent Village" and that he has to be acknowledged for the important role he plays in shaping the conversation.
Most of us are not sympathetic with Emergent Village. Nearly all of us think that EV falls into McKnight's "as" category (see his article, 'Five Streams of the Emerging Church' still available on line from Christianity Today).
My sense of our community is that we generally agree that McLaren and EV have allowed themselves to become enculturated by postmodernism. For us, this is a 'been there; done that' thing.
Don't assume that our silence is support of each and every word he has uttered or written.
Bill may be correct in his assessment that *most* of the people who participate here are not sympathetic with EV or Brian McLaren (at least those who are left), but I hope we all understand that doesn't mean everyone feels (or felt) that way.
It seems there have been some lines drawn over the last year or so. And I guess that's okay. But I don't really know that it's what I think of as a place for "free flow of thought and conversation" for those "interested in what church will look like as fresh expressions emerge in the 21st century" (see header).
Please do carry on; but don't interpret my silence as agreement with anything. I am "choosing not to engage."
Dan,
One of the disciplines one hopefully masters in completing grad school education is to be cautious about overstating one's case. Hence, my careful inclusion of the phrase "for the most part" and the words "most" and "generally" and the phrase "nearly all of us."
I know that your thinking is subtle and complex and fueled by passion for the Lord and I would never ever assume that I can speak for you. I wish you would let us know more about what is on your mind.
Your bro',
bill
Ken,
"...an ordinance has to be based on an event in the LORD's life that has salvific significance for us. Ordinances are not intended to display our day to day morality, they are intended to witness to the acts of our LORD in saving us from sin."
I know the "philosophic basis" of this assertion.
I have been struggling to gain a biblical understanding of the covenant meaning of Baptism, the Lord's Supper and Feet Washing since 1987.
I see an entirely different biblical background for these rituals rooted directly in the Covenants of the Old Testament.
So, what in the Word convinces you that Forney's definition is actual biblical truth?
I'm hesitant to do this...mostly because I've been reading this blog for over a year and it seems like you guys just talk circles around here all the time...however, reading most of these 91 comments has gotten me a little fired up.
Alright, my name is Isaac Horwedel. I'm a sophomore at Anderson University getting my undergrad in Bible and Religion with a minor in Peace and Conflict Trasformation. Please keep in mind that I'm 19, I don't have the maturity of someone who is 30 or someone who watches "Leave it To Beaver," I like Seinfeld, The Office, and Curb Your Enthusiasm (what does that have to do with my belief in Christ again?)...I'll do my best to stay civil though.
I'll start off with saying that none of my views reflect the views of my dad, Dan, who is pretty regular on here (although we do agree on quite a bit).
I'll also just say now (not necessariy an apology) that I'm probably going to offend most of you on here, and that that's just kind of the way it is. I'm going to speak very openly, I don't feel any ties to any sort of denomination or even religion for that matter (although I do consider myself a follower of Christ). If you want to disagree with me then that's fine, but the only thing you can call me out on is my own opinion, which I am completely entitled to.
It's kind of a daunting task to look at all of these comments and attempt to respond to all 91 of them with one little comment.
My initial reaction is this (a lot of this isn't necessarily in response to this specific post, but just to the general state of things):
I think almost all of you are missing the point. Ken I think you're mostly wrong when you talk about my generation of "believers." Almost entirely wrong. As my dad pointed out, I'm in a Christian ethics class. We were discussing ethics in relation to "church." We discovered that basically everyone in the class felt dissillusioned with the Church as a whole. But it wasn't because the Church wasn't providing solid answers. It's because a large group within the Church IS trying to force people to live, act, and think a certain way.
Christianity as we know it is fading fast (meaning the Christian ideals from the 50s to now). The moral majority got it wrong and people are figuring it out. You don't have to be a good American to be a Christian. In fact, go to just about any good liberal arts Christian school and you'll find that a good portion of the kids there are pretty pissed off at the government and the state of the church (much like he was?) But instead of sitting around and talking about it, a lot of kids are trying to do something about it.
Most kids my age don't care about denominations...actually most kids my age really don't like denominations. Most of us don't care about good solid doctrine. We have the ability to look at something like Feet Washing, Communion, Baptism and all of that, and realize that they're all Biblical and they're all good and that we can believe what we will and that it's perfectly okay for someone else to believe what they believe. Maybe this isn't the way it should be, but it's the way it is...sorry. It's not that we don't do further research into them...but it's not the main issue.
A lot of us don't really care about the emerging church, or Emergent or whatever. But most of us are sick of the conservative right or the liberal left trying to work it's way into Christ. We're tired of the capitalist/consumerist/American oppressive mentality that says "we're right and you're wrong" and that if you don't agree with us we're going to bomb you and say that God told us to. We're not buying it. War is not acceptable anymore.
Most of have switched our focus from a paralyzing academic system to trying to act on what we believe the Gospels are saying (and by the way I agree with McLaren that we really haven't fully grasped them yet).
The conservatives missed the point and so did the emerging guys and gals. They tried to say it was a conversation but things always naturally progress into systems and systems naturally start to corrupt the good. Which is why every few hundred years someone comes along and changes everything...everyone usually calls them a heretic at first and then in a few decades they make them a saint.
Keep your denominations...I'll do my best to move with Jesus and the Spirit. It's not hard to see that God is moving amongst the poor. The Conservative traditional church can keep its suits, it's chiseled-in-stone-doctrine, and it's "i'm going to make you feel bad about the way you live your life". The Emerging church can keep it's lattes, suburbs, and "Things are just so confusing that I don't know what to do so I'm just going to read a bunch of books and keep changing my mind on everything." Although if I've got to side with someone (which I don't) I'd really rather not side with someone who is known for being rigid and judgmental.
Meanwhile we've got people moving into urban communities in solidarity with the poor, using downward mobility to live amongst the people Jesus called us to help. It's easy to live in a comfortable house, with nice cars, a nice church, and give to charities and missions and not really do a whole lot. I know it is, cause it's kind of what I've been doing, and I go to a nice school, so I'm not pointing fingers.
What I'm trying to say is...quit arguing about all of this. Or even really dialoguing on it. I would guess that based on my interaction with some of the down and out in the urban areas of Anderson and Indianapolis that many of them have a much better understanding of Jesus than most pastors and professors with their degrees. I've also found out that most of them have gotten burned by the church at some point in time.
While we're worried about old theologians and whether or not each of us believes what everyone else believes, there is probably a cold, hungry, humiliated person within 50 miles of you who has been completely rejected by the very people who claim to care about them (the church). Chances are that person is a minority who was brought up in a broken home, was never given a chance, and has lived a life none of us could even comprehend...and we're arguing over people changing their minds? what?
Why isn't the church trying to find ways to correct oppressive systems that are ruining people's lives and spreading poverty and dependence instead of trying to figure out the most absolute truth for this generation? Why isn't the church realizing that America is one of the most oppressive forces for evil in this age? You do realize that most of us support the oppression of men, woman, and children in third world countries each day with the products we love to use?
You will never be God. You will never understand everything God does. The world is not black and white. Anyone who argues differently has never taken the time to look at a situation outside of their priviledged background and their Christian (and probably American) context.
The issues are no longer problems of the white and priviledged. They are ending poverty, war, hate, and intolerance, and to bring justice through love. In essence...my generation...my unlearned unbiblical south-park watching generation is doing its best to bring about peace and the kingdom. I'm sorry if that scares you. I kind of hope it does.
isaac
sorry this was annoyingly long and probably pretty immature
Isaac,
Sorry. If you expected to offend me or scare me, you failed on both counts.
Thanks for your openness.
The biggest problem I have with what you have written is that it took you over a year to write it. Please, PLEASE, PLEASE write more in the future. Set us straight. Far too much of what we put on this blog is the musing of 40something or 50something white guys who really do care a whole lot but understand very little about what you are expert in.
I’ve read your post. I’ve printed it out and taken notes on it and plan to reread it many times.
What you have written is as articulate a statement of postmodern thinking from a ‘millennial’ ‘generation’ person as I’ve read. In addition to your openness, I thank you for your passion.
One of the deepest regrets of my existence is that I know you are right about me. You certainly can include me in the group when you say, “I think almost all of you are missing the point.” But, it’s not for lack of trying.
Depending on how you define church, it’s a good thing that virtually everyone in your class felt disillusioned with the church as a whole. In reality, the church is the universal community of people who follow Jesus. I hope you will give your life to finding the church and to being as important a part of it as you can possibly be. But, the visible church? There’s a lot there that fails to inspire. Good for you and your classmates for seeing that it needs to change. Even better that y’all are committed to the change.
I do hope that you will someday be able to retract your statement, “Christianity as we know it is fading fast (meaning the Christian ideals from the 50s to now).” American Christianity is. No doubt. I did my grad school at Drew University. The first Christian missionary to Korea was a Drew grad. Drew is the Harvard of Korea. Many of my neighbors in my grad school days were Korea believers. The cream of the crop. Believe me, Christianity is not fading there. It’s not in China or in Central and South America. It’s doing well in many parts of Africa. And, I suspect that sometime after I assume room temperature—probably sometime after you do too—the U. S. and Western Europe will be the ground on which a spiritual battle is fought between Muslims and Christian Missionaries from Asia and Central/South America.
From a global perspective, the Gospel is doing just fine and the future is white-hot bright.
I appreciate your comments such as, “…we can believe what we will and that it's perfectly okay for someone else to believe what they believe.” And, I sympathize with your entreaty to us to “…quit arguing about all of this.”
However, I believe that one understanding that can be gleaned from the numerous times that Jesus confronted religious hypocrites is that there is an ‘is.’ Jesus described Himself in the flesh as the truth. Good is a reality as much as evil is. Faithfulness to the one will of a God for a person’s life is as much as reality as hypocrisy. Truth is as real as is error.
You are correct to chide us for our easy willingness to argue truth and our lack of concern for justice. Amen, bro! Well said. Point taken. Don’t ignore the fact that your prophetic word to us is built on the one Truth contained in the words of Jesus.
As far as “Why isn't the church trying to find ways to correct oppressive systems that are ruining people's lives….” (emphasis mine.) For me the reason is that Jesus didn’t address the issue on the level of systems. You have pointed out the error of the Moral Majority. But, it seems to me that the only thing the MM did was to try to find ways to correct what it understood to be oppressive systems. The truth of history is that Jesus was wise when He said, “My kingdom is not of this world.” His solutions are holistic—affecting body, soul and spirit—and there will never be a systemic solution that comes from Him. Please don’t let your gang make the same mistake that nearly every generation in Christ has made before it.
As to your lumping of the Emerging Church with the conservatives and liberals and heaping equal venom on them all, I have reached that understanding myself, though the day of my birth was separated from your day by 34 revolutions of the earth around the sun.
One of the posts I’ve been contemplating for this blog, if I enter it, will have a title something like, Why the Emerging Church Will Fail. I’m convinced it will fail. Knowing history as I do, were I a bettin man, I’d put my house on it. I believe that you are correct. I’m seeing what you are seeing: “It's not hard to see that God is moving amongst the poor.” And, the EC as far as I can tell, is mostly white, 40 or older middle or upper middle class. And, more to the point, it’s made up of people who don’t have dirt under their finger nails. The great movements of the body of Christ have normally begun among the poor, very rarely among the theologically educated.
Off the hizzle, dude. (I know no one has said that for at least four years. I just had to take a moment to say it. It’s been so long!)
One more note. I was touched by the similarity between your idealism and what I would have written at 19 in the early 70s. Remember the hippies. Consider that they have almost all become comfortable baby boomers hoping to get to retirement early. Don’t let that happen to you.
Please come back, Isaac. We all needed to read what you have given us.
Sorry that my response was probably longer than your original. Hope you got this far.
bill
Bill at your behest I will unlock my post. I thought the last part of it was a bit strident so I removed it BUT...
Issac, the sun has revolved more for me than fo Bill but I hear what you are saying and said something very similar in the 1969. "Forget the church but give me Jesus." I can now say I love them both and have committed my life to them but I don't think the church can stay as it is and do what she is supposed to do. That is why I like this conversation. When I made my comments in 1969 I did not have a Bill Sloat saying how much he appreciated them. Love you Bill, Amen, Isaac.
Vieux Loup= Old Wolf
My post of 9/27 was something like this:
When did I fall asleep and msii the post about rewriting "We beleive" for the postmoderm generation. I have two probelems with that. One, we would need an interpreter because we do not speak that language. Two, would they read it?
et patati et patata...as they say in France
Bill,
We are going to do communion this week in the church, and I plan to preach on feetwashing.
I will look into posting the important parts of the sermon on this blog, we can do some interacting about feetwashing from there.
I have to find out how to do that.
By the way, you did a very good job with your response to Isaac. You answered most of the points in the way I would have wanted to, but you did a far better job.
I could take some lessons from you on communicating more effectively on a blog. Good job.
Ken Zitsch
Bill,
Thank you for your response. I agree with most of what you said, but I take issue with a couple of things. First is your statement about the future of Christianity. You responded with stating that one day America would be a place where a "spiritual battle is fought between Muslims and Christian Missionaries from Asia and Central/South America."
This statement kind of stung me a bit. It's this sort of terminalogy that turns a lot of people off to Christianity. Must all Christians use war terms? It seems as if all evangelicals like to use terms derived from the military or capitalist economics. I realize that you're speaking metaphorically about a "spiritual battle," but even that sort of rubs me the wrong way (and I realize the term is somewhat biblical).
A couple of weeks ago a friend and a professor and I went to a religious "trialogue" on Abraham. It was a three week series on the father of faith. The first week was a Jewish perspective, presented by a rabbi (I was unable to attend this). The second week was a Christian perspective, presented by a resident theologian at the second presbyterian church in Indy, and the third was the Islamic perspective presented by two mulism speakers at an Islamic center in Indianapolis.
While to some this may seem like a horrible event, I found it to be very interesting, and it didn't at all resemble a battle. I realize that we were discussing an issue that, for the most part, all three faiths share a common belief in, and that had we had a discussion on say, Jesus, things might be quite different. But I really think we've got to get it through our heads that we Christians can't learn anything about God, or even Christ, from other religions. I believe there is truth in other religions, I just happen to believe that truth comes from Christ, whether or not they know it or call it that.
Missions is a touchy subject for me. Christians have been pretty horrible in the past few hundreds of years. I would say the tag-team of missions and colonialization have been a major force of evil in the world. What do you think Latin American Liberation Theology is reacting against? i know things are getting better today, but this idea of spreading white American christianity has got to go.
On may statement about Christianity fading out. I don't really think it will...you read my mind though is saying that maybe "American" Christianity will. I don't think it's missions that will save "real" Christianity though.
You talked of systems. I think you misunderstood me, and I was probably being too vague. When I said we should be correcting oppressive systems I didn't mean correcting them by putting up new systems...I meant ending those systems. And if you think THAT'S wrong, then I just don't agree with you. This whole idea that God only talked about love at a distance is wrong...charity is perpectuating poverty, it's easy to see. It's a cycle. People feel good for giving money because they "helped" and they didn't have to really do anything. Jesus did talk about "body, mind, and soul," as you said. And I believe that if we really want to make change then it's got to come from within. But I also know that people use this type of thing as a cop-out to do nothing and just work on their own inner garbage. Working on your mind, body, and soul in white upper class America is not what Jesus called most of us to do. No matter what we are doing, we should be helping the oppressed. I don't think you can read the Gospels and get any other impression. I do think it looks different to different people...and yes there are oppressed people in white upper class America.
Also, I think you may have read a bit too much into what you think I might have been saying about my convictions as far as the truth of Christ is concerned. I have no doubt in my mind that Christ came and did what the Bible says he did. I believe it to be true. But this whole absolute truth debate is just pretty ridiculous.
There must be a distiction made between truth and fact if we're ever going to get anywhere. A friend of mine from India explained it to me like this...Truth requires a relationship. For example, my friend and I had known each other only a few months. He had no idea of my existance prior to meeting me. However, this doesn't change the FACT that I have lived for roughly 19 years. Truth only enters into the picture after he and I have met and gotten to know each other. Obviously, relationships look different to different people. What may be true to our relationship might be false in my relationship with someone else...that doesn't necessarily change fact. But it's impossible to argue truth with someone without a relationship, without tolerance, understanding, patience, hope, faith, and love...which all come from Christ and him alone.
peace,
isaac
Isaac,
I hope to have the opportunity to meet you someday. I was on the staff at Winebrenner for part of the time your dad was there and have always respected him. I can tell that there is a lot of your father in you.
You said/asked, “You responded with stating that one day America would be a place where a "spiritual battle is fought between Muslims and Christian Missionaries from Asia and Central/South America."
This statement kind of stung me a bit. It's this sort of terminology that turns a lot of people off to Christianity. Must all Christians use war terms?”
Good question.
And, it gives me an opportunity to say something about myself that will probably help some others--especially Ken--understand my point of view.
Theologically speaking, I am a “Restorationist.”
Restorationism, at least as it applies to me, is the conviction that at every time and place Christians are best served when they seek to reinvent New Testament Christianity.
There is something about that New Testament era that is raw and powerful. I am convinced that we can do nothing better than to constantly struggle to translate the spirit and practices of the early believers into our own time.
--------------------
Ken, this is for you: What I just explained is the best explanation of why I support a conversation about our beliefs. To be a Restorationist is to live in two dimensions at the same time. One never changes. The other constantly changes. The example of the New Testament Church is static. The culture we live in is in the midst of upheaval. The fact that we live in a time of cultural upheaval demands, for me, a vigilant and continuous attempt to translate what will never change into what is changing very rapidly.
Now, here’s the real point of my post that started this discussion: John Winebrenner was a restorationist. When I say that we have abandoned the spirit of his teachings, that is what I mean. We have lost his passion to reinvent the New Testament Church in our time. My call for a “Radical CGGC Orthodoxy” is a call to return to Winebrenner’s Restorationism, which, I believe was at the core of his theology.
--------------------
Isaac,
Why must all Christians use war terms?
Well, of course all of us don’t. But, I do because that metaphor is, as you acknowledge, biblical. Paul said, “…our battle is not against flesh and blood…” He advised believers to put on the full armor of God. John the Baptist used a violent metaphor to explain the entirety of Jesus’ work in the world. He said, “His winnowing fork is in his had and he will clear his threshing floor….” That winnowing process was extremely violent as far as the grain is concerned.
Why does the New Testament use military and other violent metaphors? I assure you that their use is not gratuitous.
I’ve been to Haiti. I’ve heard the beating of the voodoo drums at night. I accept the biblical teaching that spiritual forces of evil are real and active in the world and that we are caught in the middle of a cosmic battle between good and evil.
I actually deliberated over the use of the term ‘spiritual battle.’ I chose it for two reasons. First, because it is a biblical metaphor. Second, because it is an apt description of what I expect to happen. There will be, I believe, a rather intense battle for the souls of the people of western culture after it ultimately slips into the narcissism and hedonism that will result from secularism.
“Missions is a touchy subject for me. Christians have been pretty horrible in the past few hundreds of years. I would say the tag-team of missions and colonialization have been a major force of evil in the world.”
I would change that to say that from 1492 until, say, about a hundred years ago these horrible abuses took place. I see very little evidence of missions and colonization going hand in hand today--except for within Islam, which by its history links faith and citizenship.
The reality is that witnessing and making disciples are the departing commands of the one we follow.
Your whole paragraph, “When I said we should be correcting oppressive systems
….”
Preach it, bro! Right on!
“There must be a distiction made between truth and fact if we're ever going to get anywhere. A friend of mine from India explained it to me like this...Truth requires a relationship. For example, my friend and I had known each other only a few months. He had no idea of my existance prior to meeting me. However, this doesn't change the FACT that I have lived for roughly 19 years. Truth only enters into the picture after he and I have met and gotten to know each other. Obviously, relationships look different to different people. What may be true to our relationship might be false in my relationship with someone else...that doesn't necessarily change fact. But it's impossible to argue truth with someone without a relationship, without tolerance, understanding, patience, hope, faith, and love...which all come from Christ and him alone.”
It’s because you can say this that we really need you here, Isaac. I need to understand this! And, so do most of the rest of us. In my opinion, this is what we don’t get. From my point of view you are making an artificial distinction between truth and fact. And, that artificial distinction is fraught with peril.
I appreciate your anecdote about your friend from India. And, I think, but am not certain, that I understand your assertion that truth requires a relationship.
Here’s my own anecdote. I had a cousin named Dan who would be three years younger than I am were he still alive. At some point in his early teens he began to drink and immediately developed a problem with alcohol abuse. From that time on, for about three decades, his life was focused on a struggle to break free from booze. At one point, he connected with a program that helped. He reached the point, after a lengthy period of sobriety that he was hired as a counselor in that program. The essential job requirement was that he remain sober. We were all proud of him. One day, however, he walked into the path of a speeding train and was discovered to have a high level of alcohol in his blood. Obviously, the point had come when he lost his resolve. He drank and then could not face a life living under the tyranny of his addiction. And, at that moment, truth and fact became one. Truth meant that walking into the path of that train would end his struggle. No relationship with the train was required. The truth in his mind--the only one that mattered was from the discipline of physics--the vagaries of Quantum Physics notwithstanding. His “existential truth” became a fact of science which could be trusted. For him physics became the only spiritual truth that had consequence.
He trusted in a reality that he believed to be absolute. And, his faith in that absolute trust proved to be justified--at least as far as his struggle with alcohol was concerned.
Now, Isaac, I suspect that I just talked past you and missed your point entirely. If so, my error was honest. And, believe me when I say this: I need for you to explain to me how I am off base.
I have a passion for people who think the thoughts you recorded and who are not following Jesus. I want them to know Him in a way that will transform them.
Please help me.
bill
Bill,
Anybody who is faithfully serving the Lord and has accepted their need for repentance, and has immersed themselves in the atoning blood of Christ, already lives in the world of the New Testament Church :-)
The Scriptures are our rule of faith and practice. John Winebrenner does not make the rules, neither for that matter did Forney. They both attempted to bring clarity to the Scriptures for us (They were wonderfully successful in that). But at the end of the day, it is God who makes the rules. What He has said is this: "We should not forsake the assembling of ourselves together as is the habit of some" Whether we are here on this earth, or colonizing the moon, the church is God's footstool, and He is the sovereign king. We are the embodiment of His Son, and we can be very confident that He does not make mistakes, nor does He change His mind, nor is He incapable of adapting to the present set of circumstances. God will find a way, we are to stay rooted in the Scripture.
What is more, Winebrenner and Forney would both acknowledge God's providential hand also with regard to these things also. Whatever they put forth as practices for our denomination ultimately had its root in the Bible. Their arguments very passionately were first and foremost derived from that.
Nothing has changed over the years in those places where God has been earnestly followed. My worldview is the Bible, and I see the same world in it today, that goes back to Adam. "There is nothing new under the sun, except today in the church age we need to repent, and be baptized. I received that worldview from the CGGC. It was not a mistake. I will not be told that I am only looking at things from my own point of view. Scriptural teaching does not allow us to believe that faithful Christians are operating from their own point of view. They are "a new creation." and like Paul, "It is not I who says this, but the Lord." If we are people who can only ever operate from their own point of view, then the Bible has lied and what is more, God has sent us forth on an impossible task.
I want to say this as humbly as I can: I know your good intentions, brother, but I am not interested in your restorationism. What is it that you would want to go back to anyway? Winebrenner's restorationism was what it needed to be to start this denomination, but I am very leery of anybody's beyond that. Winebreener's restorationism has survived the biblical test of time (with regards to true and false prophecy), I cannot be sure of where yours would lead.
I see today that we have the Scriptures, and we also have the same Spirit that the ancient church did. Our practices are rooted in the Gospel. Certainly we cannot be sure that this is the case everywhere, but I'm not going to spend alot of time worrying about that. A friend that I know used the term "flagellation"; I am not going to flagellate myself because of other people's perceptions of what the church might be doing wrong. Why would I consider it appropriate to question what the apostolic church is doing at all?
Bill, we are free moral agents, but we are not in any position whatsoever to effect a monumental change in God's providence. I think we humans have a tendency to take ourselves too seriously. Overrate our capabilities if you will. God is driving this bus Bill, and until the time that He has determined, we can be sure that it is not going to go off the road.
I would ask you this: Now, this requires that we are both making the same assumption, but my assumption is that the Bible is accurate as it records that Paul wrote the Pauline epistles.
Assuming that to be the case, it is clearly seen that the church became more institutional as the years went by. It became something entirely different from the way that it had started. My question Bill is this: Why didn't Paul rail against the changes? Why did he not condemn the institutionalization? Shouldn't he have said something like: "Why are you guys doing things in a totally different way than what I started with you there. You need to get your act together and get back to the way that things were."
He didn't do that. His concern was the gospel, and that it be kept uncorrupted. He was most interested at that time in "sound doctrine." He did say these things: Bishops "must not fall into disgrace and into the devil's trap." Deacons "must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear concience." He also called them to "guard what has been entrusted to you, turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge, which some have professed and in so doing have wandered from the faith."
I think the 2nd chapter of II Timothy just about puts forth all that we need to know today in the CGGC:
"If we have died with Him,
we will also live with Him,
If we endure,
We will also reign with Him.
If we disown Him,
He will also disown us;
If we are faithless,
He will remain faithful,
for He cannot disown himself."
Bill, it does not get any simpler than that.
If we are truly sincere about our faith, if we have repented, if we have waited on the Lord to take over our life,
We do not need to worry about what the present times hold. That is where I am bro, I don't need to worry about whether various individuals or communities in the church are functioning as they ought. Jesus told Peter when he asked the Lord about John (paraphrasing), "Don't worry about him Peter, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, What is that to you? YOU must follow me."
I am not in a position to criticize our practices as a church until I am faithfully following Christ. That is: in repentance, sanctification (faithful to our calling), and hope and confidence with reqard to eternity. We will not be relevant in any culture until those things are set. And even then, I must temper any criticism that I might entertain with the recognition that God is in control. This hasn't changed over the ages, and it will not change until He comes back, In the meantime, as for me and my family, we will (continue to) follow the Lord. Whether we have the form of the New Testament Church or not. I am satisfied as I look around me in the CGGC, Scripture continues to be our rule of faith and practice. (as both Winebrenner and Forney would attest should be the case). We have everything that we need, each of us in our own situations, we just need to understand how best to apply the gospel truths. I have every confidence (in God, not men), that will continue to be the case.
Till we all (that have responded to the call) get to Heaven.
If I sound ignorant and unmindful of the realities of the world around me, goodness sakes, all I can say is "Come join me." It is really not as bad as you think.
Ken Zitsch
Ken,
Until you (and your entire church) begin speaking and reading Greek, Hebrew, or Aramaic, I think you need to admit that you are not dealing with the Bible as it was presented over 2000 years ago. You are dealing with an interpretation.
Agreed?
If so, this opens up a whole host of questions.
If you sense where this post is headed I'll you respond instead of writing more now.
Brent
Ken,
Until you (and your entire church) begin speaking and reading Greek, Hebrew, or Aramaic, I think you need to admit that you are not dealing with the Bible as it was presented over 2000 years ago. You are dealing with a translation and interpretation.
Agreed? If so, this opens up a whole host of questions.
If you sense where this post is headed I'll let you respond instead of writing more. If not, I'll have to expand my comments after your reply.
Brent
Brent,
You said:
"Until you (and your entire church) begin speaking and reading Greek, Hebrew, or Aramaic, I think you need to admit that you are not dealing with the Bible as it was presented over 2000 years ago. You are dealing with an interpretation."
That does not create a dilemma for me, Brent.
I don't have the original Greek, Hebrew, or Aramaic; but Brent, I do trust in Christ.
Joh 1:1-2 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.
The Scripture itself attests to its primary role in the life of the Church. Interpretations? Sure! but, better believe, as faithful and authoritative as they need to be.
The church today exercises stewardship over the Scriptures, and we have an academy today that can get us pretty close to the original autographs.
My primary trust is not in how close we are to the original languages however, our hermeneutic in interpreting Scripture needs to be the gospel, and more specifically, Jesus Christ. Jesus is the Word, and the Word is with God, and the Word was God. For faithful Christians seeking to earnestly understand what God is telling us, we do not need to go any further than our KJV, NKJV, RSV, NASB, NIV, NLT, NAB, NEB or any others such as them.
The Word is there (in those places) Brent, and He will not allow us to float mindlessly into a stream of ambiguity. We have had many interpretations of Scripture down through the years, and God has not ever "not been there for us." We have always, and will always have Godly men make sense of the Scriptures for us (Neh. 8:7-9). Jesus will not allow His church to go astray. Scripture is and remains authoritative in our life no matter what the interpretation. God has not left us without understanding, but, in order to have that, you must find your home in the Word.
Ken Z.
Ken,
"Winebrenner's restorationism was what it needed to be to start this denomination, but I am very leery of anybody's beyond that. Winebreener's restorationism has survived the biblical test of time (with regards to true and false prophecy), I cannot be sure of where yours would lead."
Mine?
Where in the name of God's green and fertile earth did that come from?
I'm advocating a conversation! What brand of glue do you sniff? I think it's time for you to change brands!
"...it is clearly seen that the church became more institutional as the years went by. It became something entirely different from the way that it had started."
Ken,
You have a considerable tendency toward hyperbole. I do not share your interpretation.
Entirely different?
No.
I can’t see that it’s possible to generalize about the numerous Christian congregations coming into existence around the world by the time of Paul’s death. And, I certainly don’t see institutionalization as being an issue across the whole church.
“I am satisfied as I look around me in the CGGC,“
Yes. And you’ve expressed that sentiment in the past. I told you then that it was the scariest thing I’ve ever heard and that I hope no one else on this blog or in this body shares that thought.
Ken!
“Satisfied?”
Please carefully reread the Sermon on the Mount. The Great Commandment. The New Commandment. The Great Commission.
“Satisfied?”
How can you possibly be satisfied?
Bill,
It was you who said:
"Theologically speaking, I am a “Restorationist.”
Are we just supposed to believe that Bill Sloat's version of Restoration is the same as Winebrenner's?
(I do not think that I am the only one who shares the gift of hyperbole)
I just ask that if you are going to quote me, show the quotes in their context. Please!
BTW: You did not answer the issues in the post.
1. What would you think we need to go back to?
2. What are we doing today that would seem to indicate that we have moved away from New Testament moorings?
3. Where did Forney misinterpret Scripture (based on earlier conversations)?
4. What exactly do you mean by "reinventing" the New Testament Church in our time?
5. Why is it that we should think that with Jesus' promises in Scripture to the Church, that we should believe that the Church is not living out the Sermon on the Mount. The Great Commandment. The New Commandment. The Great Commission (certainly none of us are perfect Bill, but neither has anyone that I see given up the quest).
Bill said:
"Satisfied?”
How can you possibly be satisfied?"
Ken says,
Because of my inordinate faith in God.
You need to deal with the question of God's providence throughout the history of the church, Bill. You have not addressed that in any of your posts. I believe Bill, God is in control. How about you? and how would that affect our conversation(s) in discussing a "Radical Orthodoxy"
I believe that in the end, if I am faithful, it will all come out as God has seen that it would.
I am doing the best that I can,
so is alot of other people that I know.
What do we need to do better?
Ken Zitsch
(where you see CAPS I'm not "shouting". I still haven't figured out how to use bold or italics)
Hi Isaac,
Your comments were not at all offensive. A little "fire" is appreciated.
Can I admit something to you--- without offending YOU, I hope?
Your post made me smile. :-)
Not condescendingly.
Not as if I was amused.
But rather, because it brought back memories (very dusty memories) of my own very idealistic youth.
I'm guessing that most of us "who watched Leave It To Beaver"---and don't leave out Andy Griffith---can relate, if not to the specific content of what you've said, at least to the passionate idealism with which you said it.
Here's a suggestion for you. Print out your post. Fold in very neatly and tuck it into your wallet. Take it out in about 20 years and read it. You'll see why I smiled.
That is not to say that I didn't take you seriously. I truly do want to understand what drives your generation.
You are 19 and I, well, am decidely not. :-)
That doesn't make what you said "immature", but it does mean that it hasn't yet been road tested.
In truth, we need both perspectives: idealism and realism.(speaking generally, not necessarily philosophically)
Those of us who can barely remember 19, sometimes get cynical and jaded, and need to be reminded of what we started out to achieve. And you who are just beginning the journey, need to hear what experience has taught us about what it takes to work toward your ideals.
So, I am going to call you on a few things:
1. RE....Isaac: "I don't feel any ties to any sort of denomination or even religion for that matter (although I do consider myself a follower of Christ)."
If what you are saying is indeed true of your generation, then you are putting the cart before the horse. A follower of Jesus doesn't leave the Church behind to go and serve the poor.
Jesus' marching orders(oops, military terminology)...Jesus' final command to His Apostles was NOT "Go out into all the world and... serve the poor". It was "Go into the whole world and proclaim the Gospel".
First things first. "Seek first the kingdom of God, and all these things..."
Without a solid doctrinal foundation, how will we speak the truth with authority? The Apostles spent 3 years at the feet of the Rabbi before being sent out into the world. They discussed, debated, argued, questioned, listened and learned.
Hmmmm....sound familiar?
***************************
2.
RE: "Why isn't the church trying to find ways to correct oppressive systems that are ruining people's lives and spreading poverty and dependence ...?"
A follower of Christ doesn't promote a Gospel of social justice. A disciple proclaims the Gospel; the Good News of freedom in Christ. And that GOSPEL commands us to love our neighbor, to care for the widows and orphans, to feed the hungry, etc.
And, while we are on the topic, who are you to tell me that I and my friends don't care about the poor? Are you talking about the (50-ish)couple I know that visits people in the hospital and nursing homes? Or maybe you mean my (50-ish) family member who does prison ministry. Or are you talking about my (40-ish) co-worker who recently raised money to go on a mission trip to Haiti? Wait, maybe it's my 80 year old friend who does street ministry. Could it be that (60-ish)lady from my church that runs the local soup kitchen?
It's sometimes good to put things in concrete terms. Don't give up on us over 40 folks. We ain't as bad as you paint us.
**********************************
3.
RE: "I would guess that based on my interaction with some of the down and out ...have a much better understanding of Jesus than most pastors and professors with their degrees.
Another unfair and unsupported statement. Sounds all warm and fuzzy, but it's not factual. It's been my privilege to meet pastors of different denominations who are true men of God, trying to live submitted to His will and in relationship with Jesus Christ.
The "down and out" are not strangers to me either. While its true that many of them cling to Jesus. That hope often came to them from contact with a church and a pastor. And, by God's grace, if I cooperate with the Holy Spirit, that hope should come from me. And my hope is nurtured by being connected to a church body.
*************************
4.
RE: "What I'm trying to say is...quit arguing about all of this. Or even really dialoguing on it."
Can't we do both? Strive to make a difference in the world AND debate theology?
**********************************
5.
RE: "Why isn't the church realizing that America is one of the most oppressive forces for evil in this age? "
Why are you shifting the blame from the corrupt political and legal systems of the countries where those products originate??? Sure, we need to be more educated and discerning in our consumerism. But "most oppresive force of evil"?! Give me a break, Isaac. That's really over the top. Sounds pretty impressive in print, but again, unsubstantiated and frankly, untrue.
******************************
6.
RE: "In essence...my generation...my unlearned unbiblical south-park watching generation is doing its best to bring about peace and the kingdom.
And, EXACTLY/SPECIFICALLY how are you doing that?
****************************
RE: "I'm sorry if that scares you. I kind of hope it does."
Nope, I don't scare easy. I sincerely wish you and your generation all the best. Ideally, each generation should learn from the previous one, and be able to do a better job. :-)
******************************
RE: "sorry this was ...probably pretty immature"
I'm wondering why you felt the need to add this??? Do YOU feel it was immature?
In His Love,
Felicia Swavely
P.S.
RE: " I like Seinfeld"
I used to like Seinfeld, but it started to disturb me that they lead such totally selfish and pointless lives, and we find it humorous.
I really wanted to get to bed before 2 am, but I foolishly got on the blog and knew I wouldn't be able to sleep until I responded. Please excuse any spelling or gramatical mistakes...it's been a long day...
Bill,
I agree with a lot of what you said...you kind of lost me with your story though. I'm not really sure what you were trying to say there. Any insight would be appreciated.
Felicia,
I guess I'm glad I made you smile. Although I'm not sure I like that you think my beliefs haven't been "road tested." Just because a person is old(er) it doesn't necesarrily mean they have done a whole lot, and just because a person is young(er) it doesn't mean they haven't done much. I'm not saying I've done a whole lot, but I've spent a a decent amount of time in study and in experience with the poor, and have also spent a considerable amount of time mentoring youth in prisons, considering my age. I realize I've got a ways to go and I'm not arrogent enough to say that I've even come close to a lot of people out there, but based on some of the pastor's and Christians I've known and their "road tested" beliefs, I'd say I'm okay with where I'm at right now...
I realize that in a few years I will probably look back on this and smile too, as you say, but I don't believe it will be because I think I'm wrong (even though I very well could be)...it will probably be because I find this whole thing to be kind of humorous.
You're reading far too much into what I say. First off, you quoted what I said about my "ties to a denomination" and said I was claiming that for my entire generation, which isn't true. You then said I was proclaiming that we should serve the poor without the church, again, I never said this.
I was saying that my beliefs are my beliefs and not the beliefs of all of Christianity or all of a denomination, which is what a lot of people like to do because then they feel like they're backed up by a denomination or a religion. I was simply stating that I come here as an individual, with individual beliefs and that I won't defend them as anything other than my personal opinion.
The apostles debated and argued. Trying to say that the type of debate that goes on between pastors and churches today has something in common with that does not line up to me (and I'm talking about all Christians not just CGGC). The apostles did not debate from computers in coffee shops and in nice houses. They did it amongst the poor.
They were DOING while they were LEARNING. I don't think Jesus ever told them to wait until they had their doctine down before they helped their neighbor.
I don't think it takes a good solid doctrine to love.
I believe we should proclaim the gospel. When I read the gospel I see things like solidarity with the poor, non-violence, simple living, and above all doing whatever one can to NOT live a life un-examined.
you said: "A disciple proclaims the Gospel; the Good News of freedom in Christ. And that GOSPEL commands us to love our neighbor, to care for the widows and orphans, to feed the hungry, etc."
What do you think social justice is? I think it's loving your neighbor, caring for widows and orphans, and feeding the hungry...
I don't appreciate you calling my statements about my interaction with idividuals whom I know "warm" "fuzzy" and "not factual." I said what I said because I've experienced it, not because I like how it sounds.
Also, again, I think you're reading into things. I don't recall ever telling you that your friends don't care about the poor. In fact I don't think I ever directed a specific statement at you or your friends at all. If I did, I'm sorry. I'm glad you're proud of your friends, I'm sure they're great people and I'm glad they're helping out.
I don't understand how someone could look at America's track record and not see how it could be considered a supreme force of evil. It's a country founded on racism. We police the world and start a war over anything. We force countries into debt by convincing them to take out huge loans, we then blackmail them into helping us fight our oil wars, telling them that if they don't we will start a war with them (there IS documentation for this, I'm not making it up). We support fascist dictatorships all around the world and are ready and willing to assassinate anyone who poses even the smallest threat. We support sweat-shop labor. We consume more than any other country. We pollute as if the earth means nothing to us. We support greed and cut-throat business and getting whatever we want by any means necessary.
Must I go on? Saying things like "Sure, we need to be more educated and discerning in our consumerism" are the exact sorts of statements that lead to consumerism in the first place. This is a cause for action now. I'm tired of people sticking up for America like it's God's country. The American flag has no place in a church, nor does any other national flag. You cannot serve two masters. This whole idea that we must respect and "pledge allegience" to our country, this plot of land represented by a piece of cloth, is absurd. I do not understand why or how Christians hold America up like it is the blessed nation, pledging allegience to it as if it is going to save them.
A few examples of what some of my friends and I have attempted to do. Prison mentoring, once a week since last year (not including the summer). We've started an enviornmental awareness and activist group on campus which has gotten the school to quit using styrofoam cups and switched to a corn-based biodegradable material we are also implementing a campus wide recycling campaigne, we have a group/initiative on peace-building awareness, having discussion, and also taking action. Last year we went down to Indianapolis every Friday for about half of the year buying pizzas and haning out with homeless people (we no longer do this for a variety of reasons which I will be glad to discuss some other time) we probably had about 50-75 homeless people in attendence each week, we took part in an internship this past summer on the west side (poor side, minority side, generally forgotten side) of Anderson, living in an abandonded school building having open gym for neighborhood kids and community meals for those living around us. Many of my friends have taken to vegetarianism, which is great for the environment, others have given away most of their clothing, will not buy new clothing, will not buy sweat-shop items I'm not doing this to try and say all of these things I've done, but you asked...all of this has happened within the past year, also, so I like to think we're just getting started.
I'm not trying to say your generation got it wrong and that my generation has it right. Most of these ideas have been around for a long time, it's not like there's really anything that new out there.
After looking over all of this it seems I have strayed quite a bit from what I had origionally intended with my first post a couple days ago...I'm not sure how we got here, oh well...also, I still think it's all kind of immature.
peace,
isaac
P.S.
A note on Seinfeld:
I find thier selfish and pointless lives pretty honest, and I would say they resemble a lot of our lives and that there is quite a bit of truth in the show in general...I also find their lives to be completely hilarious.
“Are we just supposed to believe that Bill Sloat's version of Restoration is the same as Winebrenner's?
Yikes, Ken!
How could it possibly be? This is not 1825 or 1845 or 1860.
More to the point, Ken, there is no Bill Sloat’s version of Restorationism. Trust me, my thinking is not that comprehensive nor my aspirations so grand.
This is why you are open to the accusation of strawmanizing. You are engaging in hyperbole and projecting an extremism on me that is not there. Ask anyone else in this conversation if they think I have my own version of Restoration that I want to impose on the CGGC. Go ahead, please!
If you continue to exaggerate what I’ve been saying and misrepresenting it, I going to end the conversation. I think I’ve been patient enough.
For me, Restorationism is a pursuit. A process. An ideal. A goal. A benchmark. It’s a way of thinking about being in the body of Christ that was once the core of our intellectual identity that the CGGC is no longer embracing. And, we are suffering for it. Our attendance in declining. The number of our congregations is shrinking. The impact of most of our congregations on their communities is nil.
Take me back to the days when Winebrenner led a passionate effort to be the New Testament Church in our own world. Please!
“1. What would you think we need to go back to?”
I have no program or agenda. I think that being the New Testament Church in our time and place should be our continuing, intentional quest. I would be glad to see the CGGC start by undertaking a study of Winebrenner’s 27 Point description of the “Faith and Practice of the Church of God” from 1845 and ask questions like:
Are we to our world today what we were to our world in 1845? In what ways are we no longer what we were? How did the change take place? Is the change for the better or for the worse?
Do we want to be to our world what we were to our world in 1845? If not, why not? If so, what would we be and do to achieve that goal?
Some time ago Jim Moss wrote a book entitled, RETURNING TO OUR FIRST LOVE. What would we have to do to return to that love?
“2. What are we doing today that would seem to indicate that we have moved away from New Testament moorings?”
As I’ve said, we have left behind us the spirit of Winebrenner’s thought.
“3. Where did Forney misinterpret Scripture (based on earlier conversations)?”
I don’t know Forney’s teachings well enough to comment on that. As I’ve said, his ‘philosophic’ definition of an ordinance is extra biblical. The fact that he’d produce a ‘philosophic’ basis of the ordinances says a lot. Would Restorationist John Winebrenner have attempted such a book? I seriously doubt it. Much of Forney’s writing seems to be rooted in the theological controversies of his own day more than it is drawn from the Word. That’s an important reason why it’s irrelevant today.
“4. What exactly do you mean by "reinventing" the New Testament Church in our time?”
Having as a continuing goal being in our time and place what the early believers were in theirs and doing in our age of what they did in theirs.
“5. Why is it that we should think that with Jesus' promises in Scripture to the Church, that we should believe that the Church is not living out the Sermon on the Mount. The Great Commandment. The New Commandment. The Great Commission (certainly none of us are perfect Bill, but neither has anyone that I see given up the quest).”
One word: Satisfied.
You claim to be. I can’t imagine ever being so.
Take a look around you, Ken! We are losing our culture. The early church was accused of turning its world upside down. The shifting culture today is turning the Church upside down. Certainly you see that.
“What do we need to do better?”
Achieve a higher degree of obedience to the Sermon on the Mount, the Great Commandment, and the Great Commission. The CGGC in America, along with the rest of the American church, is losing America.
Never, ever, be satisfied.
“You need to deal with the question of God's providence throughout the history of the church, Bill. You have not addressed that in any of your posts. I believe Bill, God is in control.”
Ken, this is precisely the point. I have my ears and eyes open to what the Spirit is saying to the churches. That’s why I take the Emerging Church seriously. Ephesians 4 says that Jesus will give prophets to the church until we all reach unity and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
Since before Jesus, it is through the prophets that God has spoken in the world. According to the Word, He is still doing so today. I believe that it is quite possible that some EC people are numbered among His prophets.
The Lord was in control when the Luther posted his 95 Theses in response to the sale of indulgences. He was in control when the Anglicans were running their Church into the ground by making vicars of second sons of the nobility so they could have a ‘living’ and the Wesleys and Whitefield and their Methodist pals went on to the streets and into the fields preaching the Gospel to people who used the church only for weddings and funerals. He was in control when John Winebrenner saw the lukewarmness of that vestry in Harrisburg and, in time, a Restorationist and revivalistic movement began.
God certainly is in control. The history of God’s dealing with humanity in the Old and New Testaments and since then has been filled with accounts of men and women who have confronted the status quo in the community of faith with the message and the passions that the Lord has laid on their hearts and have boldly proclaimed, “Thus says the Lord.”
That is how God has chosen to exercise control in the past and still is.
And, it’s why I listen carefully to voices who challenge the status quo in the church today before I decide to be satisfied.
It seems to me that people can easily venerate the prophets of earlier generations and then choose the status quo over the message of the prophets in their own age. And, that, Ken, is precisely what I fear you are doing.
Bill,
You said:
"It seems to me that people can easily venerate the prophets of earlier generations and then choose the status quo over the message of the prophets in their own age. And, that, Ken, is precisely what I fear you are doing."
That is one way of looking at it, Bill; that would seem to accomplishing the purpose of trying to make me look out of step with what God is potentially doing;
but:
there are other perceptions of reality out here that are just as valid. And they do not necessarily correspond with yours.
Unfortunately, for all of us, prophecy is unable to be validated sometimes for generations after the fact.
I do not have any tension as I await to see how it will all turn out.
FYI: My problem with what I see with any alleged "prophets" at this point in time is that a prophetic word (biblically), Bill, has to include TWO very essential elements,
it will speak to God's righteousness (as demonstrated in His own being, and what He intends for us),
and it will speak to His justice and mercy (leveling the playing field for everyone in this world).
In the emerging church, there is an undisputed focus on justice (we must credit them with that), but it is to the detriment of the righteousness aspect (don't take my word for it, read what they are saying these days about atonement).
In other words: All the social action in the world prophetically speaking does not mean a hill of beans unless you repent and have been saved. And not only do you need to repent and receive cleansing then, it is necessary for it to be done for the rest of your life (a daily living and dying). It is the church's obligation to live the sanctified (or set aside) life.
Only then will going out to the soup kitchens and serving have any significance.
You don't believe me? then, argue with Jesus:
Mark 14:7 "For you always have the poor with you, and whenever you wish you can do good to them; but you do not always have Me."
As I said: "I will be glad to see how it all turns out in the end."
One other issue with regard to the above:
"And, that, Ken, is precisely what I fear you are doing." is what you said.
This doesn't have anything to do with me Bill. I am not doing anything except asking you valid questions that need to be answered. I would urge you not to think that I am the only one out here with these kinds of concerns. I am just one of the nicer ones.
Thank you for answering the questions as you did. Obviously I do not agree with everything that you say, and I'm not sure that you were explicit enough in some of your answers. But, maybe that is just a function of this type of communication. Maybe there is some talk that just needs to be done face to face. I will certainly anticipate that. In the meantime: I will have to let it go.
Finally Bill said:
One word: Satisfied.
You (Ken) claim to be. I can’t imagine ever being so."
That Bill, is hyperbole. You distorted what I said.
I said, "I am satisfied as I look around me in the CGGC, Scripture continues to be our rule of faith and practice. (as both Winebrenner and Forney would attest should be the case)"
The point: I was satisfied that Scripture continues to be our rule of faith and practice.
I am very, very satisfied about that, as I will continue to be. As far as your concerns about me, the Bible continues to be the horizon that I glance around and behold. As long as that continues to be the case, that worldview will serve me well. Have no fear about me.
Ken Zitsch
Hi Isaac,
I've got a pile of paperwork to finish and I'm "on call" tonite, so I have little time to respond. Also I think we've gone way off topic and I hesitate to disregard the original post to yet a greater degree.
Let me clear up one point though.
Obviously I did not explain myself very well:
Felicia: "A disciple proclaims the Gospel; the Good News of freedom in Christ. And that GOSPEL commands us to love our neighbor, to care for the widows and orphans, to feed the hungry, etc."
Isaac: What do you think social justice is? I think it's loving your neighbor, caring for widows and orphans, and feeding the hungry...
**********************************
Pastor Ken explained it far better:
(he was referencing the EC, but lets put that aside for the moment)
"...there is an undisputed focus on justice (we must credit them with that), but it is to the detriment of the righteousness aspect (don't take my word for it, read what they are saying these days about atonement).
In other words: All the social action in the world prophetically speaking does not mean a hill of beans unless you repent and have been saved. And not only do you need to repent and receive cleansing then, it is necessary for it to be done for the rest of your life (a daily living and dying). It is the church's obligation to live the sanctified (or set aside) life.
Only then will going out to the soup kitchens and serving have any significance."
*******************************
Yeah, what he said. :-)
Also,Isaac, I want to commend you and your friends on your commitment to the poor and suffering in your community.
In sharing with you the work some of my friends are doing, I was intending only to demonstrate that us old fogies ain't all that bad.
God bless you,
Felicia Swavely
Felicia,
I agree that social justice not done out of love does not amount to anything. However, I don't necessarily think that means one must be "saved," a term that Christians really like to use that has a whole lot of negative connotations and that is hopefully fading fast. I believe God is love. Anything that that is done out of love has God's name on it. I don't really buy into the necessity of this "personal relationship," although I think it works for me and a lot of other Christians, I don't think everyone necessarily must undergo this "conversion" experience in the way that we all assume it happens.
Also...personal salvation means NOTHING if end there. "faith without works is dead." I know james isn't popular, but I still think he's right. Social justice with no love isn't good...but being personally saved and thinking you've really accomplished anything or done anything to bring the Kingdom to earth is just as bad...actually I would say worse.
isaac
To All Writing on This Blog:
In his last post, Isaac said, "I don't necessarily think that means one must be "saved," a term that Christians really like to use that has a whole lot of negative connotations and that is hopefully fading fast. I believe God is love. Anything that that is done out of love has God's name on it."
Isaac has the right to hold his theology just as any of us has the right to hold to ours. By the way, Isaac, you articulated your view of the Gospel very well in your last post. Thanks for being willing to share this with us.
Now to the rest of you: What Isaac has just articulated is contrary to the historic teachings of the Churches of God from any angle, whether it's the current We Believe, Forney's writings, Yahn's or Winebrenner's. (By the way, Isaac, I am not saying this in a negative way or to reflect negatively upon you; I am merely pointing this out as a fact).
The question is, if we were to have a forum to introduce a Radical CGGC Orthodoxy (or for that matter, any other kind of a forum - perhaps a "Forney" Orthodoxy forum?), do you see how complicated this would be? The challenge is that we could not all possibly come to a consensus. How would the Bills and the Kens and the Isaacs and the Georges and the everyone elses ever come to a consensus? It would not happen.
This is the first reason, I think it's best that "We Believe" be left alone (I know, the original intent of this post was not to change "We Believe," but it has been mentioned in the comments).
The second reason not to change it is this: Our credentialed people (pastors) have given their word (during ordination) that they believe the tenets in the current "We Believe." I am one of those persons. Now let's suppose that we move in a different route: Suppose that we change our belief to say that Feetwashing does not signify Christ's humiliation (incarnation). Further, let's say that we change our view on regeneration to reflect what Isaac articulated. Fine. Imagine that we have done that. Now what do you do with me and the oodles of others out there like me? You've changed our denomination's doctrine and yet I still believe feetwashing signifies Christ's humiliation. I still believe in the Winebrennerian understanding of regeneration. Am I supposed to "retrofit" my theology? To publicly affim this "retrofit" without doing it in my heart would be disingenuous on my part. If I don't "retrofit" my theology, then I am automatically breaking my ordination vows when I promised to defend the doctrines of the Churches of God. A lot of us will find ourselves in a huge dilemma. Someone might say, "We'll just granfather you in, Jensen. You and others like you can stay faithful to the We Believe you vowed to support." Fine. Then we would have a hodge-podge of preachers out there in which some are in one camp and some are in another. This would do wonders to confuse the dickens out of congregations when they go to call a pastor! It would also provide a tremndous amout of fuel to the fires of dissension, factions, and splinter groups!
As dull, boring, and culturally irrelevant as this will sound to many of you, I say this: To quote that great theological "hymn" from that all-time classical work "High School Musical": "STICK TO THE STATUS QUO."
-Rev. George C. Jensen
Enola First Church of God
Supporter of the current "WE BELIEVE"
George,
"The second reason not to change it is this: Our credentialed people (pastors) have given their word (during ordination) that they believe the tenets in the current "We Believe.""
Your entire post is very thought provoking. Either I'll respond more here or maybe take you out for a cup of coffee soon.
In light of the question that ended the post that initiated this conversation, can I take it that you consider me a heretic, not a Winebrennerian?
Bill,
To answer your last question, Of course I do not consider you a heretic. That never entered my mind. In my opinion, a heretic would be someone who is an Arian, a Pelgian, or some other gross violator of orthodox doctrine. Clearly whether or not one believes that feetwashing symbolizes the incarnation is not a matter of heresy. If so, then all of the Southtern Baptists, United Methodists, Lutherans, and most adherents to Christianity would be heretics. Furthermore, Winebrenner himself may be counted as a heretic under this sort of rubric since we have no evidence that he believed that feetwashing symbolizes the incarnation.
Now having said this, I do think it would be good for us to have a standard as to what issues in "We Believe" pastors may respectuflly disagree with. For example, if someone believes that feetwashing does not signify the incarnation, should he or she be called a "heretic" and be banned from ministry? NO WAY. But, what if another pastor subscribes to Arianism? I think those who hold to Arainism SHOULD be banned from ministry in the CGGC. I guess what I am saying is that I believe we need a uniform standard saying, "These beliefs from 'We Believe' are 'essential' for the ministry and these other beliefs are 'non-essential.'"
Having said that, I do think "We Believe" should remain as is to avoid a huge "hornets' nest" like I mentioned in my last post. And, if some of our ordained people disagree with 'non-essential' doctrines (again, I believe the feetwashing/incarnation business is "non-essential"), then let them hold those beliefs to themselves, but don't force the rest of us to change.
No, I don't think you are a heretic. In fact, as you know, you hold a HUGE amount of clout in my book. You need to be aware that had a host of others raised this feetwashing/incarnation issue, I wouldn't have given that person the time of day. By the way, I was almost thinking about coming on board with you and rejecting that feetwashing signifies the incarnation. Do you know what kept me from coming on board with you on this point? Ironically it was a post on this blog talking about how Feetwashing signifies the incarnation. That article was posted in December, 2005. It was written by Bill Sloat. I don't say this to chide you, I just have to say that after looking into this, I agree with your former premise (the Dec. 2005 post) rather than your current one. Good grief, I even modeled this year's Christmas Eve service at Enola after many of your points in that 2005 post. On Dec. 24 at 6:30 pm, We are going to demonstrate the incarnation by having two people come up on stage and wash feet! (See why this whole thing is causing my head to spin?)
By the way, I don't have nearly the education and background in these matters as you. I don't have a Ph.D. in feetwashing. That is why I humbly choose not to debate the feetwashing/incarnation issue with you. It would be like Tike going up against Spike. It would be arrogant on my part. It all boils down to this: I've been to the smorgasboard, and I happen really enjoy "eating" the Dec. 2005 article.
So why am I posting on here? Although I am not qualified to debate you, I am qualified to sound a warning bell: I do feel the need to warn you and warn everyone else that if we go down the road of changing the doctrines in "We Believe," (even "non-essential" ones) then watch out, baby! You just busted open a 27 cubic foot hornets' nest!!
George C. Jensen
Enola, PA
George,
Regarding your comments about me in your post entered 10/05/2007 11:30 AM. You are waaaaaaaaaaaaay too generous and kind.
bill
Friends,
What follows is a post that I wrote yesterday, reworked last night and reworked again this morning before I decided to scrap it in the interest of patient forbearance. Now, after our brother Ken’s further sins on the Campolo thread, I enter it after all.
It is my belief that we should consider some form of discipline as far as consistent and blatant examples of unloving behavior on the part of one of our participants is concerned.
----------------------------------------------
Ken,
(What I am writing to you I have deliberated on and reworked several times. What I say, I say sincerely after having meditated on the truth that love is patient, love is kind, it is not rude, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs, it rejoices with the truth, it always protect, always hopes and always perseveres, among other things.)
But, Ken, have you ever noted the name of this blog? This is a cyber community of people interested in or challenged by the Emerging Church.
You say, “In the emerging church, there is an undisputed focus on justice (we must credit them with that), but it is to the detriment of the righteousness aspect (don't take my word for it, read what they are saying these days about atonement).” (emphasis, of course, mine)
“Them? They?
All of ‘em? All of us?
Obviously, then, you mean Brian.
And, Brent.
And, Dan.
And, Lew.
And, Doug.
Maybe Tammie.
And, certainly, you mean me!
There is no they here. There is no them here. For most of the rest of us here beside you, there is only a we and an us. Because you’re not sympathetic to the Emerging Church, I grant that for you there may be a you. But, your use of they and them is offensive to me. I take it as a personal affront to my friends here whose names I just listed.
Get this straight: If you can’t make a generalization that fits the people I listed, you can’t make it in this conversation.
So, think about it. Do we all come up short in righteousness?
What, exactly, is it that we are saying about atonement? Apparently, I didn’t get the memo. We, Ken. The Emerging Church people here. Brian. Brent. Dan. Lew. Doug. Tammie. We!
If there’s something you have to say about our soteriology, say it. But, don’t talk about them. When you do that, you are strawmanizing and you are being immensely insulting. And, you are bearing false witness about brothers and sisters of mine in Christ. And, I won’t allow you to do that any longer without a rebuke.
Remarks about them and about they have no place here.
Ken, this blog has normally been characterized by a positive and uplifting conversation undergirded by a sense of mutual respect and sensitivity of our differences that is extraordinary for a religion discussion board. I have watched you push Brent and Dan and Brian--normally patient and loving people--to heights of anger and defensiveness that I’ve never seen in them. And, you’ve pushed me, too, as must be obvious by the tone of this post. I’ve addressed this with you privately in an email. Now, I’m doing it within the context of this community.
So, knock it off!
If you want to converse with us, please do so. But no more thems; no more theys; no more insults and no more condescension. If you can’t use the pronoun you, your comment has no place on this blog. Save those for one of your Emergophobe friends to whom you referred in an earlier post.
I don’t want to lose what you might potentially bring to this conversation. But, to this point you’re not in the conversation. You’re railing against them. You’re not engaging us.
bill
Bill,
I am not going to dig to deeply into your last post.
I refuse to answer to charges that you have arbritary thought to make and just because you say so "it must be so"
You have taken posts of mine and distorted them monumentally since I first started interacting on this blog.
The only one who owes anybody around here an apology is you.
I dialogue/debate/ converse with the idea that this is a free exchange of ideas. If you don't think I am correct, then it is your privilege to tell me so. I am open to change in my views, but it must be aproached biblically. I am not the one who puts the ideas of certain Christian leaders on this blog. Now, I wouldn't know if you agree with them (nor do I presume to know), but I have to ask when you hold them up as examples to listen too,
how much of what they say do you believe?
If you do not believe alot of what they say, why do you pay attention to them at all?
Bill,
I have talked to people also, and I'm not going to mention them by name. I had alot of trepidation as far as my participation on this blog, because some of what I see bothers me to the core of my being. But my being here was encouraged.
I will say this to all those out there who were named and Bill has sought to raise issues between us,
I regret that you would take anything that I say as directed against your person or your character. That is not my intention at all. I talked to you Lew at the "Study Day", and you know the admiration that I have for you. Brent, I admire you, particularly with the accomplishment that you've made in your vocation, I don't know Tammie, and I've never directed a post to her, Brian. we disagree, but that's okay, he doesn't answer to me. Fidelia, she is very articulate and I agree with most of what she says. I expressed my feelings for Dan, I hold him in high esteem.
Bill, you take yourself to seriously. As Brent said earlier in a post, it just might be time to go to war. I have a right to my opinion, any you have a responsibility to interact with my posts in context. Perhaps it is better for me to say that I will not respond to any more of your posts. I can deal and dialogue with most anybody else on here that I disagree with, and at the end of the day we can lay our heads down on the pillow as friends. But Bill, you have put yourself out as an expert in an area that is really inappropriate for you to have started a debate about. You questioned the legitimacy of one of our ordinances. I agree with what George said above about what we can agree with or disagree with, but the fact of the matter is my friend, you have violated Paul's teaching in 1 Corinthians 8-11. You are entitled to your opinion about feetwashing, but the fact is that most of us our here don't share it.
And what's more, there are probably brothers out there that you have raised doubts in their mind, as they continue to deal with the issues of being a pastor and a teacher of the CGGC.
That is why I've seemed to be so directed about the things you say. As I asked you above, you are entitled to your opinion, but does that mean that you must speak it?
Brian, Dan, nothing about the comments in the above post regarding soteriology was directed at you. I was "railing" at the works based liberal theology that threatens to take over the universal church.
Ken Zitsch
I'm sorry brother, I love you, but I do not agree with you.
Ken Zitsch
Ken,
As a brother in Christ, might I suggest you take a step back and consider again what Bill has said. Print out his last comment, read it again in a day or two, pray over it, and perhaps refrain from responding for a time. He has a valid point - not as an enemy, but as a friend.
May the peace of Christ rule in your heart.
Dan
I have been gone for a awhile and what a slew of comments. I would like to add one more.
I have been involve with a community revival in which about 14 different churches participated. I spoke the 2nd night. We had Assembly of God, various types of Baptist, Methodist, independant Christian and a bunch of others.
Isaac this is the church. It has different colors and shapes but it belongs to Jesus. Remember Jesus came for the church not the individual ( who is part of the church) By the leading of the Holy Spirit we gathered and focused on Jesus, His return and what we the church need to be doing to get ready.
Isaac, we smile because we have all been where you are. In many ways we still are. Your words are very true yet in many ways incomplete. God will show you what needs changed.
Do any of you know the writers of the WE BELIEVE? Some are still active, some are with the Lord, and others have left the Churches of God. A few I wouldn't have trusted to come up with a sound doctrinal statement but God did.
For what it is worth consider: If you are your own God you may make any decision you like and may interpet scripture as is comfortable to you. But if the Lord be God then He owns you. This is something the revival brought out to me. How does God view all of the discussion? I think He is pleased and He smiles at our immaturity. Yet it is the struggle to known Jesus that this is all about and that makes it good. We have differences and that is good but in the end Jesus Christ crucified, risen and coming again.
Ken,
I would agree with Dan that you should look at Bill's final paragraph and give it a bit more reflection. I don't agree that it is Bill who takes himself too seriously and that the rest of us get along with you just fine.
You said: "Brian, Dan, nothing about the comments in the above post regarding soteriology was directed at you. I was "railing" at the works based liberal theology that threatens to take over the universal church."
This is a blog where we can discuss certain ministry issues, not a blog to "rail" against liberalism.
At least from where I'm concerned, this is where you aren't listening. The salvation issue is not where I disagree, nor does anybody else on this blog. And salvation does come first. But Christianity does not stop there. It becomes fruitful and healing for the community and world around it, and we long to be more fruitful in both salvation and healing of our communities and world.
So rather than rail against liberals here, engage us in the conversation at hand, which often asks "Where does the church go after salvation?"
Ken,
I didn't question the legitimacy of one of our ordinances. I accept all three of the ordinances embraced by the CGGC. Just like John Winebrenner.
If others in this community believe that I should apologize I will consider myself disciplined, repent and apologize.
"Let me give you a new command: Love one another. In the same way I loved you, you love one another. This is how everyone will recognize that you are my disciples—when they see the love you have for each other." John 13:34-35
This discussion? is interesting if nothing else, but my biggest concern is how much time has been wasted here bantering back and forth while your neighbors, friends and family are missing the boat. We should be spending our time with those who are lost and in need of the hope given by Jesus Christ, not bantering among ourselves. OK, lets trying getting up from the desk, walking away from your PC/laptop, GO INTO THE WORLD and share Jesus!
"Use your heads as you live and work among outsiders. Don't miss a trick. Make the most of every opportunity. Be gracious in your speech. The goal is to bring out the best in others in a conversation, not put them down, not cut them out." Col.4:5-6
Peace,
Gotta go I've got fish to fry!
Rick WTS Class of 2000
Hi Pastor George,
First let me say that you are an interesting and colorful "character" on this blog. There is a certain "peace" and authority to your posts.
While reading your last post, I was reminded of a conversation I had earlier today with a co-worker. (This may sound self-important but I'll say it anyway) Often, two seemingly unrelated events come together in my mind. And, sometimes I feel compelled to say something, even when I'm afraid it may put me in a negative light.
When those things happen, in my experience, it is often the Holy Spirit moving in my life. Of course, I'm not always right about that. :-(
That being said....
Today I invited a co-worker, who is a self-proclaimed agnostic, to a Bible study. She refused saying that she did not believe the Bible to be accurate. She also shared that we can never know this "power greater than me" whatever it is. And, anyone can believe whatever they want to believe, and that's ok.
I responded by asking her if truth is important to her. She looked at me questioningly. I asked her if she believed a "truth" exists about this "higher power". She was not sure what to say.
Then I pointed out that if she truly thought that anyone could believe whatever they want to believe, she either did not acknowledge that there was some factual reality about who God is, or she didn't really care to know the truth.
Pastor George, all fears and difficulties aside.... regarding what Jesus meant to signify by washing the feet of the Apostles---isn't the truth important to you?
Sincerely and with all due respect,
Felicia Swavely
Felicia,
I rejoice in the way you were able to share with your co-worker. WOW! I wish I had more folks in the congregation here who were as passionate to reach the lost as you are. I am going to pray tonight that God will use you as His vessel to reach this person. Your conversation with her about the truth hit the nail right on the head. Keep up the good work. Good for you.
To answer your question, "Regarding what Jesus meant to signify by washing the feet of the Apostles---isn't the truth important to you?" My answer is, "Yes, the truth is important." The problem is, "What is the truth: does feetwashing signify the incarnation or does it not?" Now to show you how complex this question is, let me ask you a similar question and I would like you to answer it: "What is the truth: A) a believer is eternally secure OR B) a believer can forfeit his or her salvation." Now after you give me the truth in your answer, I want you to prove to everyone and convince us that you are correct. Good luck.
-Pastor George Jensen
Enola First Church of God
Evenin' Pastor George,
Point well taken. Yet, I stand my ground. Truth matters more than inconvenience, internal strife, resulting upheaval, etc.
The debate you propose is not new to me. Been there; argued that; understand what you are saying.
But, I KNOW what I believe. And, the reason I haven't changed it isn't because it may cause me turmoil. It is because I am convinced, beyond a doubt, that it is what Scripture teaches.
For the record, I believe one has no assurance of salvation except...
to "persevere to the end", to "run the race", to "remain in His kindness" and not be cut off; to "work out your salvation in fear and trembling"; to "hold out to the end to reign with Christ"
because...
not everyone saying, "Lord, Lord" will inherit the kingdom; and those who think they are secure may fall; some will "share in the holy Spirit" and "taste the heavenly gifts" yet fall away;
so therefore...
"you need to endure to do the will of God and receive what He has promised."
and
"drive your body and train it, for fear that, after having preached to others, (you yourself) should be disqualified."
Your sister in the risen Lord,
Felicia Swavely
Isaac,
You have a good, Biblical name. Perhaps you've read of how God called Abraham to sacrifice his only son, Isaac. Abraham took Isaac up to a mountain and was about to plunge the knife when the LORD stopped him. A father willing to sacrifice his only son: it was a dramatic foreshadowing of God sacrificing His Son (Gen 22).God blessed Isaac (Gen 26:4), and through his lineage God entered the world as a man, the man Jesus (Matt 1:2, Luke 3:34, Luke 1:35).
This Jesus met with a scholar in the middle of the night, and told him that to enter the kingdom of God he must be born again. Jesus told this scholar that God loved the world so much that He sent His Son into the world to save the world. Jesus told the scholar that whoever does not believe in the son is condemned (John 3:1-21).
When the crowds asked Jesus what works they could do to inherit eternal life, Jesus told them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent." (John 6: 29)
This Jesus backed up His words with works. He allowed Himself to be sacrificed for the sins of humanity (John 10:17-18, Heb 9-10:18). For there is no greater love than to lay down one's life for his friends (John 15:13)
If we are so loved by God, and if His most important commandment is to love Him in return (Matt 22:36-38), if He desires to live inside of us (John 17:20-26); doesn't that constitute a personal relationship?
George,
More important than being "contrary to the historic teaching of the Church of God" is being contrary to the BIBLE.
I am thankful that "We Believe" does not hold equal standing with the word of God. Winebrenner and those who have followed were wise to base their beliefs on the Bible. A Bible which is not open to any private interpretation. A Bible which may be either rightly or wrongly interpreted.
It is good that we are wrestling with what we believe. Each of us brings insights that others can miss. Together as iron sharpens iron this wrestling should draw us closer to God and deeper into His word.
-Andrew
Hi Isaac,
Service to the poor is indeed true religion...
"Religion that is pure and undefiled before God and the Father is this: to care for orphans and widows in their affliction and to keep oneself unstained by the world."James 1:27
I couldn't agree with you more.
Where I think we disagree is on the importance of solid doctrine. Not simply "done out of love", but service to the poor done UNTO Jesus, in the Name of Jesus, and springing forth from a love of Jesus AND His Church.
Consider that the Apostles spent 3 YEARS learning "doctrine" before they were sent out into the world. And, it bears repeating--- they were sent to "spread the Gospel". Serving the poor was an outgrowth of the "doctrine" they learned at the feet of the Rabbi.
Even an atheist can do "good works" and have compassion--as more than one atheist has assured me. Even an atheist can love the poor.
Christians must be unique in that we serve Jesus IN the poor. Yes, Isaac, I too appreciate the book of James.
"See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone" James 2:24
But I hold Matthew 25 near to my heart.
"And the king will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these brothers of mine, YOU DID FOR ME'(emphasis mine) "
[I'd love to discuss the conversion experience with you, but I think we've already digressed way too much. Suffice it to say that I basically agree with you on this one point.]
You also make a good point regarding personal holiness. Yes, what good am I to the work of the Holy Spirit if I stop at myself?
Yet, if I save the world from poverty, but lose them for Christ, what good have I done them?
Consider how Scripture addresses the issues of slavery and oppressive government. You probably could speak to this better than I.
That's why I am harping on Truth first. Social justice in its place.
Isaac, I am truly sorry if I offended you in my earlier posts. You sound like an awesome young man. If I push too hard it's only to challenge you to see things from a different perspective.
Go out there and save the world, young man! But do it FOR Christ, in Christ and thru Christ.
Peace,
Felicia Swavely
Isaac,
I have some sympathy with you when you say,
I don't necessarily think that means one must be "saved," a term that Christians really like to use that has a whole lot of negative connotations and that is hopefully fading fast. I believe God is love.
My sympathy is over the way the notion of salvation has been abused among Evangelicals and Fundamentalists in the last century or so.
Nevertheless, the notion that the Lord saves is ancient in our faith. It traces back to the song of Moses and Miriam in the early days of the Exodus when they sang,
The LORD is my strength and my song; he has become my salvation.
It was at the very core of the teaching of Jesus. He said of Himself,
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
And, it was at the core of Peter's proclamation on the day of Pentecost. The final part of the decription of his message in Acts 2 says:
With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation."
One thing that makes followers of Jesus genuine is the willingness to accept the parts of Jesus' teaching that are the hardest for them to accept.
The notion that one must be saved is inextricably linked to the teaching of Jesus and the early believers. Its root traced to the earliest days of Israel's existence as a nation. I hope that you will be able to accept what is for you a hard teaching.
bill
Andrew,
AMEN! Well said.
Rick,
You said, "my biggest concern is how much time has been wasted here bantering back and forth while your neighbors, friends and family are missing the boat."
Just remember, you are here too!
-George C. Jensen
Enola, PA
George,
“I even modeled this year's Christmas Eve service at Enola after many of your points in that 2005 post. On Dec. 24 at 6:30 pm, We are going to demonstrate the incarnation by having two people come up on stage and wash feet! (See why this whole thing is causing my head to spin?)”
Wow, George, I am honored.
I wrote that post in 2005 with the hope that in some places in the CGGC we would actually affirm what we profess to believe about Feet Washing.
The title of my dissertation was, “Foot Washing as an Ordinance in the Churches of God, General Conference." (The title, as most of the outline was not mine, but that of the head of my dissertation committee, hence the term, Foot Washing.) I worked on it off and on for six years. A person gets deeply enmeshed in a concept when he focuses on it at that level for so long. My head was spinning and still is over these issues.
One thing that I concluded at a point fairly early in my dissertation research is that, in reality, we don’t believe what we say we believe about Feet Washing. Because, if we did, the most natural time for us to observe Feet Washing would be on Christmas Eve. I checked around. I couldn’t find that a single CGGC congregation observes Feet Washing on Christmas Eve. And, while my research was in no way exhaustive, I could find no evidence that at any time in our history has even one our congregations observed Feet Washing on Christmas Eve.
(I will be more than pleased to be informed that I am wrong.)
So, I reached the conclusion that the real-world fact is that Forney’s understanding of Feet Washing is nothing more than a clever idea for us--and it truly is very clever. But, that we don’t take it seriously and that we never have.
I’ll bet you dollars to donuts--a maximum of three (and those odds are not nearly as long as they used to be) that our mutual friend and brother Ken--who has accused me of questioning the legitimacy of Feet Washing--doesn’t even lead the congregation he serves in the celebration of Feet Washing on Christmas Eve.
I recall from the discussion of what I wrote in 2005 that some participants on the blog indicated an interest in doing Feet Washing at the time, but I don’t remember who at this point or in what way. And, I don’t recall what anyone actually did.
The fact is, based on our current and historic practice, that at worst we’ve been hypocrites about what we purport to believe. At best, we are hearers of the Word only, not doers of it.
Or…
…the reality might be that the hidden truth of the CGGC is that the Emperor isn’t wearing any clothes and that he never has--that we talk a good talk about Feet Washing but that that’s all it is: Talk. We don’t walk the walk.
That you are willing to present a representation of Feet Washing at Enola is a small step in the direction of actually doing what we say we believe. And, I applaud you for taking a step that perhaps no one else has taken. That is a powerful testimony to your integrity.
But, honestly, if you really believe that you and your people are pointing to the incarnation when you wash feet and that you have been commanded by our Lord to do so, why are you only representing it by having two people demonstrate it for all the others? Would you suggest that it’s enough to have two people simply demonstrate tithing during one of your services each year?
I think of myself as the little boy who didn’t have the good sense to know better and who blurted out that the Emperor was in public in his birthday suit. As I see it, if you judge us by what we do and what we have always done, we don’t believe what We Believe says about Feet Washing and we never have. As far as I can tell, the idea was just an idea, even for Forney. I can’t tell that he actually practiced Feet Washing on Christmas Eve.
So, George, let me use the occasion of replying to your comment by issuing a challenge:
You guys can protest all you want. You can defend what We Believe says as loudly as you like, but I’m not seein’ it. You can scream to me that the CGGC really does believe that Feet Washing is an act of worship intended to memorialize the incarnation of Christ. I am unconvinced. Nothing you can say will convince me. So, show me.
I challenge every Pastor and leader in the CGGC: If you affirm what We Believe says about Feet Washing, then affirm it in action. Copy a Christmas Eve bulletin into the blog showing us that you celebrate the incarnation of our Lord by your deeds and that you lead a Feet Washing service for all your people to participate in.
I will applaud everyone who can do so. I hope some will be able to. But, you all know as we as I that if there are any the number who can will be pitifully small.
No Bill,
I'm sorry to say that we do not observe feet-washing on Christmas Eve.
(That could have something to do with the fact that we don't have church on Christmas Eve)
We do celebrate feet-washing during the season of Advent.
A couple of years ago I realized that if there was ever a time to wash feet and do it in a way that enriched what we mean when we say that the ordinance looks back to Christ's incarnation,
It is during the Christmas season.
By the way: I will have to remember that unless we are celebrating feet-washing during the Christmas season,
we can't possibly really believe what we teach about it.
hmmm, on second thought...
Ken Zitsch
Ken Zitsch
It seems to me that in these verses there is a principle that has some bearing on this conversation about feetwashing,
I would be interested to know if anyone sees what I do?
1Co 8:1b-3 ...We know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies.
8:2 And if anyone thinks that he knows anything, he knows nothing yet as he ought to know.
8:3 But if anyone loves God, this one is known by Him.
Just wondering
Ken Zitsch
Ken,
"We do celebrate feet-washing during the season of Advent.
A couple of years ago I realized that if there was ever a time to wash feet and do it in a way that enriched what we mean when we say that the ordinance looks back to Christ's incarnation,
It is during the Christmas season."
Good for you!
While I do think that, because of Forney's idea that Feet Washing is a memorial of the incarnation, the absolute best way to keep the ordinance is to do it on Christmas Eve, I have no knowledge of your ministry context.
And, as I said I would, I applaud you for your consistency.
I am truly impressed.
"By the way: I will have to remember that unless we are celebrating feet-washing during the Christmas season,
we can't possibly really believe what we teach about it.
hmmm, on second thought..."
Ken,
I've just reread my post twice. I didn't say "...unless we are celebrating feet-washing during the Christmas season, we can't possibly really believe what we teach about it." I didn't say anything close to it.
I did say, "...the most natural time for us to observe Feet Washing would be on Christmas Eve." I said that when I did my research I found no congregations that do it. I said that I know of none in history that have ever done it, though my research was incomplete. I did acknowledge that there may be some who do that I don't know about. And, I said that I hope to find out that I am wrong.
And, I am, indeed, happy to hear of the intentionality and consistency in the way you conduct your ministry.
But, I never got close to saying what you represented me as saying.
The other day I said this to you, I'll repeat it.
Ken, this blog has normally been characterized by a positive and uplifting conversation undergirded by a sense of mutual respect and sensitivity to our differences that is extraordinary for a religion discussion board. I have watched you push Brent and Dan and Brian--normally patient and loving people--to heights of anger and defensiveness that I’ve never seen in them....
Why do you insist on mischaracterizing the things other participants on the blog say?
What purpose does that serve?
Ken,
"It seems to me that in these verses there is a principle that has some bearing on this conversation about feetwashing,
I would be interested to know if anyone sees what I do?
1Co 8:1b-3 ...We know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies.
8:2 And if anyone thinks that he knows anything, he knows nothing yet as he ought to know.
8:3 But if anyone loves God, this one is known by Him."
I have acknowledged your call on me to apologize for the manner in which I have conducted myself on this topic. I have promised to do so if others in this community believe that I am the one who has tarnished the spirit of this conversation.
And, I promise to be true to my word. However, I honestly don't believe that I am the one who is at fault.
I will repeat my pledge to you and the others: If the rest of the community believes that I am at fault, I will consider myself to have been disciplined, I will repent and will apologize to you.
Bill,
You said:
"The fact is, based on our current and historic practice, that at worst we’ve been hypocrites about what we purport to believe. At best, we are hearers of the Word only, not doers of it."
Bill, you can't run away from what you say. The fact is that whether we celebrate feetwashing or not during Christmas has nothing to do with what we believe it means as an ordinance.
Personally, I believe that communion should be an every-Sunday practice. But I don't presume to believe that everybody must believe that way.
Some of us might find feetwashing meaningful at Christmas, some of us (because of a variety of circumstances) do not.
Bill: you are guilty of some of the worst excesses that you accuse me of here.
The reason why you can not see it in yourself is that I have the guile to question what you say.
I still love you (agape wise), I will wash your feet I I were presented with the chance (because Jesus came from God and was going back to God-and it is in His life that I now live), but Bill, I'm very upset at you. You presume to know but your knowledge does not seem to me to be rooted in so much love as it is in criticism.
Perhaps it would be better for us to consider not addressing each other in these posts.
Ken Zitsch
"Bill: you are guilty of some of the worst excesses that you accuse me of here."
Ken,
I think the time has long since come for us to discontinue this part of the conversation.
I have offered to apologize to you if others here think I need to do so. To this point no one indicated that they are reading our posts in the way you are.
As I've said three times now, if the community deems me to be at fault I'll apologize. I respect the bothers and sisters who are reading what we are writing.
Can we leave it at that for the moment?
Would someone please start a fresh thread on the original topic?
I would like to see a discussion guided by the same 5 guidelines that formed the current edition of "We Believe". In fact, I find the introduction on pages 4-6 to be very important in understanding our discussion.
It would also be helpful for us to study the similarities and differences between the various belief statements of the denomination through the years. Our history has much to teach us.
We do not need to reinvent the wheel. However, there might always be improvements to be made.
Bill,
The reason I am only having two persons model feetwashing on Christmas Eve is due to some "advice" from "Wisdom River." Sure, I could have a full-blown ordinance service on Christmas eve including feetwashing, but I believe it is wise to first educate the people why feetwashing is signficant on Christmas Eve. Yeah, I've taught them (Enola) that feetwashing signifies the incarnation. I've made it clear on Christmas eve that we are recognizing the birth of Jesus. However, we've never put the two together. We've never had feetwashing on Chrismtas Eve. I feel that to do so would blow their minds. They're not used to it (you've pastored this church--see where I'm coming from???).
To give you an illustration of where I am coming from, consider this: "Wisdom River" instructed me to have the congregation "ease" into the changing worship styles to avoid Worship World War III. Guess what: It worked! First came some choruses printed in the bulletin, next came a praise team, then came an overhead, next a video projection system, and finally---DRUMS!!! (GASP!) Again, we did it by following the "Wisdom River advice" of Diana Ross and Michael Jackson from 1978--"Ease on Down the Road." I am doing the same with implementing feetwashing at Christmas Eve. However, if the CGGC pulls the feetwashing/incarnation stance from its official doctrine, then I guess I'll have to backpedal. Oh well, as the rich guy said who wrecked his car, "That's the way the Mercedes Benz!"
-Pastor George Jensen
Enola First Church of God
George,
I agree with you that you are being wise by beginning to educate your people about the connection between the ordinance and your Christmas Eve act of worship.
Here’s the lesson that I believe you can draw from the fact that you need to provide that education. You know very well which pastors have come before you in that congregation.
;-)
You know that among them was Jim Martin who was among the most gifted pastors of his era in the CGGC. You know that no pastor has been more loyal to the teachings and practices of the Churches of God than some of those who have led that congregation before you.
And, still, you need to begin with C. H. Forney 101 if you are going to connect the ordinance of Feet Washing in the most natural way with the celebration of the our Lord’s birth.
I’m not kidding when I say that the hidden truth of the CGGC may be that, in reality, our pastors know the Forney thing but don’t believe it. The reality is that even very loyal CGGC pastors and those who think about these issues deeply do not actually lead the ordinances from a We Believe or a Teachings and Practices point of view. So much so that at Enola (alone spelled backwards) you have to begin where you do.
What people do tells a lot more about what they really believe that what they say. My thesis is that what our pastors actually do regarding the ordinances describes the actual truth of what we believe, not what they say during their ordination exams.
And, understand me. I’m not suggesting deceit. I’m not suggesting that there is hypocrisy. I’m saying that I believe that the reality is that our pastors are willing to embrace Forney and We Believe as a clever idea but that in their hearts they are truly Winebrennerian on this issue.
Certainly, the way they lead the ordinances suggests that what I’m saying is true.
We’ll see who, if anyone besides Ken responds to my challenge. And, as I told Ken, I admire him for connecting We Believe to actual practice. As I do you. But, the truth is that when the typical CGGC pastor stands before the people and our congregations do the ordinances, what is done almost never reflects We Believe. It much more nearly reflects Winebrenner’s understanding of the ordinances.
If that’s the case--and if We Believe is not a Creed but an acknowledgment of the beliefs of the CGGC--why not just be honest about it? Why not change what’s official? Why not reconnect to our very valuable roots?
Andrew,
"I would like to see a discussion guided by the same 5 guidelines that formed the current edition of "We Believe". In fact, I find the introduction on pages 4-6 to be very important in understanding our discussion"
Good point.
I'm not sure how to go forward with this discussion.
I'm a little leery of beginning a converation that could be viewed as an attack on We Believe. Undoubtedly, you have noticed that the accusation has been at least implied that the purpose of this conversation is to change We Believe so that it is postmodern.
Considering the high degree of emotion that has surfaced in this discussion, I believe that we need to take great care not to allow how we conduct the conversation to be misunderstood.
I am beginning to sense that a lot of people who lurk around the blog but who never enter posts are watching. And, I'm thankful for that.
I simply want us to take great care that what we say here does not end up doing more harm than good.
bill
Bill said:
I’m saying that I believe that the reality is that our pastors are willing to embrace Forney and We Believe as a clever idea but that in their hearts they are truly Winebrennerian on this issue.
I would probably agree with Bill on this. And for the record, the church where I pastor used to practice feetwashing on the Wednesday before Christmas every year (they didn't have a Christmas Eve service). We have since started having a Christmas Eve service, and we take communion, but dropped the feetwashing probably honestly because it's not "seeker friendly" or "use friendly" or something that most people want to do - especially at Christmastime in America. I don't say that because I'm proud, but simply because that's what happened.
In regard to Forney/Winebrenner... I don't really know all that much about either of them, so I'm guessing that might link me more with Winebrenner. What I have always liked about our denomination is that there isn't really too much that says "You have to do *this*" or "You cannot do *that*." Even jumping into the communion discussion - if you wanna have it every Sunday, I think you can. If you don't - that's okay too. I LIKE that.
I agree with Bill that we should be careful with Andrew's suggestion. On one hand, it should be seen as fantastic that some would like to study We Believe together. On the other hand, we don't want to give any indication that we are moving ahead with a We Believe rewrite, which we aren't.
BTW, did I not get any credit with Isaac since I was in Haiti much of the time of this discussion, building a school for children? :) One of the main reasons I go to Haiti is because we can't just talk about serving the poor.
Bill,
We've reacted to each other here to much in a negative sense,
I need to offer something somewhat positive.
You said something to George (and I hope you don't mind me responding to it-I usually try and stay out of other's mail), but I guess I need to say that I do take what I believe very seriously.
Not that I'm any better than anyone else, I know that there are other's too.
Just as a matter of point, it is very important to me to understand what why I am doing what I do. Perhaps it is my not understanding that your not necessarily talking to me is where our disagreements have originated.
Perhaps you may not remember, I grew up influenced by the Catholic and Baptist churches (depending on who won the argument that day). I pretty much had to figure things out on my own as to what my belief system should be. Early on I came to value understanding myself in relation to Scripture.
That is what attracted me to the CGGC. Our practices seem deeply rooted in scripture, but as Dan said on another thread, there is some flexibility there. But at the end of the day (for me), I have to know when I'm doing what I am; it is scriptural. It must have some support by church tradition. And it must be something that contributes to the overall mission of the church as defined in Matthew 28. I dedicate myself to understanding what people say, and with that the logical progression of their thought. In that sense, I have alot of admiration for Francis Schaeffer.
That is why I like what Forney says. Perhaps you are right, maybe there are people that don't really understand what the significance of what "We Believe" says, but I do (not presuming to understand fully, I know what I do because I have made it my business to pursue understanding as best as I can).
The beauty of Forney for me is that I sense the same passion for truth and understanding in him that is in me. He wasn't willing to just take things at face value. I appreciate Winebrenner too, but to be honest with you Bill, me and him would probably have had to be co-laborers together in different states or conferences. I sense in him an idealism that I don't share. That does not make him wrong or vice versa, I just do not spend a lot of time thinking of how far we have departed from the early church. In my "logical" mind, I consider that an unproductive endeavor. I can hold that belief becuse I am firmly convinced that the Lord has control of these things.
An old friend of all of ours was around recently, and I talked to him and appreciated his insights (particularly with regard to feetwashing). He reminded me that We have to look at our ordinances based on all of the voices that have spoken in our heritage. Obviously, there was Winebrenner, Forney, but according to him there was also Yahn. He also had some very important things to say abut our practices. I need to read him.
But I offer this so that you might have some idea of where I'm coming from, and why I'm saying what I do. Our practices do need to be understood as you say. I believe that passionately. I consider it a mistake for a Pastor to be ministering without some understanding of why they are doing the things that they are. But, having said that, I will give them the benefit of the doubt. I will just believe that they are responding to God's call and working that out as best that they can in their life. But I agree with you (I think you said this on this blog in the past), we need to confront Pastors who are not able to articulate what and why they are doing what they are (I believe you talked about this in the context of a "Renewal" meeting that you were at).
Here is my understanding of the ordinances:
1. Communion - Why I am able to participate in the regenerated life - I am memorializing that the Lord gave his body and shed his blood for my sins.
2. Baptism - I am demonstrating visually my embarkation (sic??) on the regenerated or born again life. I am doing this as a visual sign that I have responded in repentance to God's Word, and He has washed me clean from my sins. I have died with Him, and now I am risen with Him to lead the life that He calls me to.
3. Fetwashing - Continually keeping in mind that Jesus "came from God, and was going back to God" (the Incarnation), I can keep my perspective in the Christian life as I go about the business of washing my brothers feet. Jesus knew the betrayer was in the room, but it was all good because God had been with Him all along the way proving out His ministry. His faith was strong and He had peace in the face of upcoming physical and emotional suffering. He knew just exactly who He was, and He knew where He was going. I would say to my Baptist brothers (who I have fellowshipped with in the past), that want eternal security, dedicate yourself to understanding that Jesus lived the life that we need to live, He had God's complete and unequivical approval, as He set out to lead the life that He did. He could wash His brother's feet joyfully.
I offer this in the hope of more positive discussion in the future.
Ken Zitsch
Ken,
Thanks for your positive and noncombative explanation for your approach to our ordinances.
As is clear, you profoundly admire Forney and I, as my "Radical CGGC Orthodoxy" comment makes clear, do not share the degree of respect for Forney that you have.
Still, I do not doubt Forney's salvation. I know that if I might have a tenth of the positive influence for the Lord that he had in his time and place I'd be a far more profitable servant of our Lord than I am.
I respect him and love you both in the sense of agape and as a brother.
Perhaps I'll never convince you of your error...
;-)
...but we can still continue to fight the good fight side by side.
bill
Re: Andrew's request
I've read the comments by Bill and Brian about their hesitations with proceeding with the discussion on "We Believe".
After re-reading the guidelines for this blog, I don't find the reasons given to NOT proceed compelling enough to avoid posting his request.
Unless there is something that you (Brian and Bill) know about those reading this that I don't, why don't we proceed with Andrew's request?
Brent,
You are correct. Nothing in the Guidelines prevents a discussion of We Believe. For me, it’s a matter of avoiding what might be offensive to certain people in the larger community of faith.
I am very much in favor of a discussion of Truth in the CGGC. My concern is that if the conversation is couched in terms of We Believe and not of Truth itself that it will threaten some.
I’m sure you read Ken’s comment that he was encouraged to participate here because people are disturbed about what we say on this blog. What we discuss here concerns some people in the CGGC. There are people who are intimidated by what goes on here.
I can’t tell you how many people who don’t blog here have talked to me about things I’ve written on the blog. People do read what we write. Most of them are unbelievably supportive. But, not all who lurk around here do so in the spirit of Paul’s admonition to the Philippians, “Whatever is true, whatever is noble, what is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable; if anything is excellent or praisseworthy, think about such things.”
As Ken represented it, I believe that there will be those who would say, “Have you seen what they’re doing now! They talking about trashing We Believe!
So, I want it to be abundantly clear that We Believe is not a target. I’m convinced that we must discuss Truth, but in a less formal way than a in terms of We Believe.
That’s all I’m saying.
Brent,
I don't know why it could not be discussed, but due to some of the concerns about our motives, I'll likely continue to post disclaimers now and then.
Feel free to start a post.
Also as a reminder, to make your own post, you need to be a member of the blog, which requires you only to send me an email and ask. My email is bedrock3@gmail.com.
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