The ‘Biblic‘ Basis of the Ordinances (with Apologies to C. H. Forney)
“What, then, is an ordinance? We cannot go to the New Testament for a definition of the term…” -- C. H. Forney, “The Philosophic Basis of the Ordinances,” 1906
Friends,
I have been surprised by the response to my “Radical CGGC Orthodoxy” discussion. Honestly, I intended it to answer the charge that Emerging Church people are weak in the area of Truth and to mention the Radical Orthodoxy Movement, which is new, difficult to understand , not as well known as I think it should be and potentially useful.
What I didn‘t expect when I began that discussion is how much heat it would generate over the illustration I used regarding Forney‘s impact on the CGGC's understanding of the ordinances.
During about the last 20 years I have invested a lot of passion in a search for a biblical understanding of the meaning of the rituals of Feet Washing, the Lord‘s Supper and Baptism. Since the “Radical CGGC Orthodoxy” discussion generated so much conversation, I‘d like to give you a chance to pick apart something I'm thinking about.
I hope you will respond graciously.
To set this up, I will make some remarks about the impact of C. H. Forney‘s book, The Philosophic Basis of the Ordinances. My guess is that Forney would be surprised if he knew how much impact his short book still has.
The subtitle of the book makes it clear that even Forney didn’t think of his work as a comprehensive answer to the question of the meaning of the ordinances. The subtitle is: “BEING AN INDIRECT, BUT CONCLUSIVE, PROOF THAT FEETWASHING IS A DIVINELY INSTITUTED ORDINANCE.” Note the very important words, “INDIRECT” and “CONCLUSIVE” (not Comprehensive or Exhaustive).
Also, I believe that we need to note the limits Forney placed on the usefulness of his understanding of an ordinance. In the book, in the “Analysis of an Ordinance,” section, Forney acknowledged that neither the term ordinance nor the term sacrament “can be regarded as a scriptural name.” (16) He added, “We cannot go to the New Testament for a definition of the term (ordinance)…” (16)
And we need to face the reality that, in the end, Forney despaired of understanding the concept of an ordinance biblically. Forney actually said,
“The only way, therefore, of arriving at a satisfactory conception of an ordinance in its Christian sense is to take those ordinances which by common consent are admitted to be what are otherwise called "sacraments," and by analyzing them determine what are their essential elements.” (16)
For C. H. Forney, the definition of an ordinance can’t be biblically derived. It can only be based on what is acknowledged by common consent to be an ordinance or a sacrament, not from the study of Scripture, but from church history.
Forney’s Philosophic Basis… is impressive. It is scientific in its precision. It is no wonder that its impact has been great. C. H. Forney is the father of modern CGGC thought and this work, more than any of his others, makes the head absolutely spin.
But, the question must be asked: What if Forney had not despaired of a search for a biblical understanding of the ordinances? What if he had not turned to philosophy?
We should be thanking Forney for the honesty of his subtitle and for his openness about his belief that the notion of an ordinance is not biblical. Forney knew that the material in his book was indirect and that it was not comprehensive.
All this is to say: I wonder if it’s time that we reconsider this definition of the ordinances that its creator admitted is not rooted in Scripture. We claim that the Bible is our only rule of faith and practice. Yet, by Forney’s own word, we are not basing our understanding of the ordinances on the Bible.
Before I proceed, I give two explanations of what follows:
1. I offer this humbly. Don’t think that I suppose that my thought is on the level of Forney’s or that it should replace Forney‘s. I have no such delusions about the importance of my thinking. This is merely a description of where my Bible study has led me. I am putting this on the blog--a place where this sort of discussion can happen and that where we don’t need to take ourselves seriously.
2. I am more confident in the value of what I have written in the preceding paragraphs than in what follows. I take Forney at his word. I believe that the apologies he made in his subtitle and in his analysis of an ordinance were sincere--and meant to be taken seriously. And, I believe that he’d be surprised that we are still making as much of his book as we are. On the other hand, I am concerned that no one else seems to see what I see in Scripture.
Biblical Covenants and their ‘Signs
According to the first account of the Lord’s Supper to have been penned, based on the words of Paul in 1 Corinthians 11, on the night in which He was betrayed, Jesus took bread. Then, after He and the disciples had eaten, He took the cup. According to Paul’s ancient and inspired account, Jesus said, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood….”
Paul then began his commentary on Jesus’ actions. He said, “For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.”
According to Paul and to the Gospel writers, the meaning of the Lord’s Supper is connected to the establishment of the Covenant. Both Paul and Luke use the term New Covenant.
The establishment of the New Covenant had been prophesied by Jeremiah centuries before Jesus. In Jeremiah 31:27-34, Jeremiah foretold the coming of the day when the Lord would make a new covenant with His people. This new covenant would not be like the one He established with the Israelites’ forefathers when He led them out of Egypt. It would be a covenant in which each person would be responsible for his own relationship with God and in which all people would be judged for their own sins.
That old covenant established by God at the time of the exodus was not the only covenant in Israel’s past. God had also established covenants with Adam and Abraham, among others.
Each covenant defined what it meant for a person to live correctly in the eyes of God. And, in each covenant there was an act of worship that the Lord established to serve as what is called the ‘sign’ of the covenant.
In God’s covenant with Abraham, the sign was circumcision.
“Then God said to Abraham, "As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you… Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant."” (Gen. 17:1-11 and 14. Emphasis mine.)
When, in future generations, Abraham’s descendants circumcised their sons they were proclaiming that they lived under God’s covenant with Abraham.
In the covenant of the Law given through Moses, the sign was the observance of the Sabbaths.
Then the LORD said to Moses, "Say to the Israelites, 'You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. " 'Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death; whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from his people. For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death. The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he abstained from work and rested.' " (Ex. 31:12-17. Emphasis mine.)
The reference to “Sabbaths” in the plural in verse 12 probably indicates that the religious festivals commanded by the Law served as signs of the covenant as well as the weekly day of rest on the seventh day.
When the Israelites rested on the seventh day and when they observed the religious festivals they were proclaiming that they were living under the covenant of the Law. This explains the intensity of the Pharisees’ arguments with Jesus over the Sabbath.
Though the word sign does not appear, it is likely that the untouched tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was the sign of God’s covenant with Adam and Eve. As long as the fruit of the tree was uneaten, Adam and Eve were demonstrating to the Lord that they accepted the covenant.
The untouched state of the Tree was a proclamation to the Lord that the man and the women were living according to His covenant with them.
The first mention of a sign of the covenant in Scripture actually appears in the story of Noah. It is unique in Scripture in that it is a sign to be kept by the Lord, not by His people.
Then God said to Noah and to his sons with him: "I now establish my covenant with you and with your descendants after you and with every living creature that was with you—the birds, the livestock and all the wild animals, all those that came out of the ark with you—every living creature on earth. I establish my covenant with you: Never again will all life be cut off by the waters of a flood; never again will there be a flood to destroy the earth." And God said, "This is the sign of the covenant I am making between me and you and every living creature with you, a covenant for all generations to come: I have set my rainbow in the clouds, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and the earth. Whenever I bring clouds over the earth and the rainbow appears in the clouds, I will remember my covenant between me and you and all living creatures of every kind. Never again will the waters become a flood to destroy all life. Whenever the rainbow appears in the clouds, I will see it and remember the everlasting covenant between God and all living creatures of every kind on the earth." (Genesis 9:8-16. Emphasis mine.)
Understanding the biblical basis of a covenant, one question has raged in my mind for years. And, I can only see one answer to the question. The question is: What is the sign of the New Covenant? Or, realizing that the Sabbaths (plural) were the sign of the Covenant of the Law, what are the signs (plural) of the New Covenant?
To me there can on be one answer. That answer is: Feet Washing, the Lord’s Supper and Baptism. These three acts of worship serve as the signs of the New Covenant.
I believe that the language Jesus used when He gave the cup to the disciples would have been obvious to them as Jews. They knew very well about the covenants. They knew that covenants had signs. To me, the meaning of the words of Jesus to His Jewish followers in context was, “This cup is the sign of the new covenant. It represents my blood.”
And, in fact, that appears to be what Paul means when he says, “For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.” Paul is saying that the taking of the Lord’s Supper proclaims acceptance of the New Covenant in exactly the same way circumcision proclaimed the covenant with Abraham and the keeping of the Sabbaths proclaimed the covenant of the Law.
Long before I entered post this on the blog, I sent a rough draft to two CGGC pastors, whom I respect. One of them participates on the blog, the other doesn’t. One of the two pointed out that I may have made a case for the Lord’s Supper being a sign of the New Covenant but that I have not made a case for Baptism or Feet Washing.
His point is well taken. I freely acknowledge that problem. I hope to begin a discussion, not give the book-length version of by view. To give the criticism its due in passing, however, I’ll simply mention the centrality of Baptism to our faith reflected in Paul’s assertion that there is, “one Lord, one faith, one baptism“ (Ephesians 4:5) and that in connection to Feet Washing that Jesus directly connects Feet Washing to His announcing the New Commandment, when He explains: “as I have loved you so you must love one another.” (The past tense of the verb, ‘love’ refers to the act of Feet Washing.) I think that these references may be understood as elevating Baptism and Feet Washing to the level of sign of the covenant.
-------------------------------------------
So, there you go.
As I said, this is where my study has taken me. Forney acknowledged that his understanding of an ordinance was indirect. It was “philosophic.” It was not biblical. As I see it, Jesus commanded Feet Washing, the Lord’s Supper and Baptism to be signs, not ordinances, as we think of ordinances. The sign of the covenant is a biblical concept. As Forney said, the concept of an ordinance is not biblical.
So, what do you think?
13 Comments:
Bill,
Thank you for sharing the work that you have been doing and giving pause for me to do a little productive research here that I have done very quickly, that has helped me firm up my understanding on these things.
This is a complicated issue, and we cannot by any means exhaust all conversation on it here in this venue. I have many thoughts in my head which leads me to this response, but I would not presume to think I can adequately communicate entirely the tenants for the understanding that I have.
With regard to what you say: I think it is important to see that neither in the gospels (with Jesus), or in 1 Corinthians (Paul), is the word "sign" used where the ordinance (Gk: paradosis) is talked about. I actually found that a little surprising because I too have thought along the lines that you have demonstrated in your post. What I have found out though has to stall that thinking a bit (at least on my part).
I wondered why the word “sign” (Gk. semeion ) wasn’t present in those N.T. readings, so I went back and examined the Jeremiah passage a little more closely, and I discovered something interesting.
We need to see why a covenant was needed to be identified in the Old Testament with a "sign." The reason why there were "signs" for the covenant in the Old Testament was so the members of the community could remind and demonstrate conclusively to each other by their practices (and perhaps even incidentally outsiders) that in fact they were in covenant with the LORD. The sign of the Abramic covenant was circumcision as you properly indicated. The sign of the Mosaic covenant was the observance of Shabbot. It is indicated in Jeremiah 31 that what would make the new covenant the "New Covenant" was this:
Jer 31:34 “And they shall TEACH NO MORE every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.” (Emphasis mine)
In other words the New Covenant would no longer be characterized by one telling (teaching) another that they should "know the LORD." It would be characterized by God Himself speaking to people's hearts and revealing Himself as God.
In my view this dismisses the need for us to look at our ordinances in terms of the Old Testament notion of "signs".
Let me elaborate a bit further: One of my favorite professors in seminary (N.T. prof-you know who he is) made me see something that is very much applicable here.
I came to seminary as a dispensationalist (I do not share that view anymore). I remember that in pathways to ministry, we had a sample class in the book of Revelation. I remember myself wanting to argue with him about what he was saying,; my arguments coming from the book of Daniel. I remember him to this day looking at me and sending shivers down my spine and saying, "Ken, you do not need to go out of the book of Revelation, to interpret the book of Revelation."
In the same vain, I think we must be very careful going out of the N.T., into the Old to come to an understanding of our ordinances. Don’t get me wrong, the O.T. has something to say and should not be ignored by Christians, but it is important to remember that the O.T. itself could only ever function as a “sign” of the more perfect way that was to come.
The difference between the old covenant and the new is that today, the Holy Spirit is the One inside of us telling us to "know the LORD." That explains the use of the terminology “New Covenant.” The Holy Spirit was not operational at that time in the same way that He is today; I would say that was primarily because of mankind’s inherent sinfulness. Signs were a way for the community to keep encouraging each other to stay the course. Obviously that grew more difficult as sin became overwhelming in the community. The Israeli experience in the Old Testament showed that if nothing else, men and women would not be able to work themselves to God). Today, God Himself works within us: Himself engendering our faith as we REMEMBER Christ's completed work on the cross. God has overcome the "communication" problem so to speak. Today, He speaks for Himself! Holy God that He is, in the old economy He could not work in the same way that He can today as he does in sanctified temples that are made pure by the blood of Christ. It is this "communication" (revelatory) problem that brought about the demise of the old practices. Emmanuel was not in fact with His people. There was too much sin going around.
Does this make sense to you? I hope so because my mind is spinning a hundred miles a minute. I feel that there is so much more to say, but I want to try and keep it as uncomplicated as I can.
When Paul says in Corinthians: "For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.” I am inclined to doubt that he is saying this in an O.T. "sign" sense. I am more inclined to think that he is doing this in a "Great Commission" sense.
My reasoning follows: At the beginning of 1 Corinthians, chapter 11, Paul makes this statement:
“1Co 11:2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.
Ordinances (Gk: paradosis) is a word that means (from BDAG) “the content of instruction that has been handed down.” Important here: the notion of sacrament must be dismissed because we are in no wise talking about a means of grace. This instruction is in and of itself powerless to operate in such a way so as to bring about any desired result. It is the Holy Spirit that operates within us in such a way so as to engender our faith. In any case, Christian instruction is what is in view here.
Interestingly in Matthew 28, Jesus says:
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. (again: Emphasis mine)
There is that notion once more of teaching. Particularly Christocentric teaching that had its origin in Christ. Again (reiterating what I said above) in John 14:26: “But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.”
This in my view, Bill, is how and why an ordinance functions.
When we break the bread, or enter the waters of baptism, or wash each other’s feet, it is not in the O.T. sense of sign. It is in the N.T. sense of instruction that the Holy Spirit will use to engender faith. By the way, it needs to be said as a caveat that none of this operates in isolation from Scripture. The Word that was with God and was God in the beginning is the fulcrum that the Holy Spirit uses to communicate the teaching. With the idea that in all of this we: “Do this in remembrance of (Him).” Praise God that in our Christian ordinances we have the opportunity to actually communicate with God and “Proclaim the Lord’s death, until He comes.”
We must be careful in our view of these things. I have just recently found out Bill that I have not had access to Forney’s “Philosophic Basis” I had confused it with a book that you gave me before you left Findley (by Forney) called “The Christian Ordinances.” I have only perused the “Philosophic Basis,” and I have to agree that in glancing at it, some of the work that Forney does there (while quite possibly accurate) could possibly be considered by some as a stretch.
Again, providence must be a comfort to us here though. I personally believe my prized hardback that you gave me is a more compelling work on Forney’s part (less of a stretch if you will):) In any case however, there are other voices in addition to Forney’s. There is primarily Scripture. But there is also our cloud of witnesses that have gone before us in this community, there is as well-the Protestant community at large since the Reformation that has contributed to the understanding of faith, these things which we all hold in high regard.
Sola Scriptura
Sola Fidei
Sola Gratia
These are the things that make us Church of God/Protestant/people of the Book. Can I say this without provoking argument: I perceive (and I can be corrected) that you are logically moving toward a more Catholic understanding of the ordinances. I had not really understood what you were talking about when you mentioned “Radical Orthodoxy.” I had actually been approached by some in that movement. I turned away from it for precisely what I see as its overly ecumenical tendencies. Ecumenism in and of itself is not a bad thing, but we must be careful to delineate exactly what we can and cannot embrace. I have to say for myself, I am not comfortable with any teaching that would seek to minimize the Reformation (which is what I see them doing). That in my mind puts us on a slippery slope toward a Catholic/Works based theology.
That’s enough for now. I hope what I am saying has not aggravated you. Believe me brother, that is not my intention at all. We are laboring together, and we need to do that reconciled to each other.
Please consider this finally: Paul in 1 Corinthians, chapter 1 writes:
1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1Co 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
1Co 1:20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
1Co 1:22 For the Jews require a SIGN, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
1Co 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
1Co 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
1Co 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. (emphasis mine)
We do not require a “sign.” Christ crucified and risen is all that we need for God to order our faith. I see in Scripture that Christ died for my sins. That moves me to the table to celebrate that that wonderful event with Him. It also moved me to the waters of Baptism so that I might live and die with Him. The life that He gave up on the cross excites me to the point where I want to wash feet with Him. I thank God that the Holy Spirit operates within me to keep me on the journey with Him.
prepared for your consideration:
Ken Zitsch
Ken,
A good, reasonable and thoughtful response.
Thanks.
I have a few thoughts about yours.
“In the same vain, I think we must be very careful going out of the N.T., into the Old to come to an understanding of our ordinances.”
Considering our past discussion, it may seem odd to you that I, of all people, would ask you to temper yourself on this point by remembering We Believe. In reality, I’m not out to trash We Believe. And, We Believe is very careful to acknowledge that in the CGGC we do go outside of the New Testament to establish our understanding of the ordinances. And, I enthusiastically affirm it on this point.
We Believe says, “Our understanding of the term "ordinance" comes from two traditions. One relates to the observance of the Passover…The term "ordinance" is used with reference to the memorial observance of the Old Covenant Passover: "And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the Lord throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever" (Exodus 12:14 KJV). ”
As I’ve read that section over the years, I’ve wondered if the writer had the concept of the sign of the covenant in mind, especially considering that later in Exodus the Lord tells Israel that the ‘Sabbaths’ plural are the sign of the covenant and that Passover was one of the other ‘Sabbaths’ commanded by the Law.
“When Paul says in Corinthians: "For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.” I am inclined to doubt that he is saying this in an O.T. "sign" sense. I am more inclined to think that he is doing this in a "Great Commission" sense.”
I can see how you’d get there.
I have memorized that whole brief passage and have spent hours meditating on it over the years. And, I have mused over the word ‘proclaim’ for much of that time. It’s the word Paul uses that is translated by the NIV as ‘proclaim’ that settles the issue for me.
(With apologies to the rest of you who are reading this. If the Greek coming up is beyond your level of interest, you can leave now and, if you‘d like to, rejoin at the next paragraph.)
The Greek word used here actually leads me to think of the Lord’s Supper as a sign. It is the word katangello, not the word, kerusso. If the word Paul employed had been kerusso, I could easily agree with you. Katangello has a meaning close to that of kerusso, but there is a difference in connotation between the two. Kerusso is the word normally used for preaching in the sense of teaching. Yet, while katangello is often rendered in English as ‘preach’ or ‘proclaim,’ it has a primary meaning very similar to the English word ‘announce’ or ‘to make public’ or ‘to publicize.’ Paul apparently chose his word carefully at this point. This is only one of seven places in his letters that katangello appears. Kerusso appears 19 times. The notion of teaching that you also see in the Great Commission is not present in katangello. That’s one of the reasons that the translations seem to have some difficulty with it in this verse. The KJV renders it “shew,” the NIV “proclaim,” the NLT “are announcing,” the NCV “are telling others” and the CEV “tell about.” The least useful translation is from the NIV. The others catch the sense of katangello as opposed to kerusso. Actually, Ken, when it comes down to it, it’s Paul use of the verb katangello and as opposed to kerusso that seals the deal for me and convinces me that in Paul’s mind the Lord’s Supper serves as a sign of the covenant. The believer who takes the Lord’s Supper is announcing to the Lord, to the community of believers and to the world that s/he accepts the New Covenant in a way very similar to the way that proclamation was made in the previous covenants when God’s people practiced the sign.
Can I say this without provoking argument: I perceive (and I can be corrected) that you are logically moving toward a more Catholic understanding of the ordinances.
No you probably can’t, though I‘m really trying.
I think that my success in avoiding being argumentative in this case is rooted in my own internal struggle over this issue. I don’t see myself as being too Catholic. My fear is quite the opposite: that my view is too OLD Covenant--that I might be treading on the ground the Ebionites once trod. Grace was not imparted in the Old Testament signs. In my own struggle, my view doesn’t lead toward a sacramental understanding of the ordinances nearly as much as it might lead in the direction of diminishing grace and elevating law. At least, that how I see it as I struggle in my own heart.
Having said that: All in all, Ken, good response. You give me important things to think about. As I said, it concerns me that no one else I know makes the connection to sign of the covenant.
Thanks,
Bill
Oh, and FYI: I’m going to be addressing the Eastern Region’s Historical Society on something like, “The Development of C. H. Forney’s View of Feet Washing” somewhere around Harrisburg on November 27.
Bill & Ken,
I really appreciate all the effort you guys have put into this (especially you, Bill - wow). I just wanted you to know my lack of comment isn't because I don't care. I really just don't know what to say. But thanks for sharing this (both of you).
I share the sentiments of Dan--my lack of response does not indicate lack of interest. I really have to think through this post.
In the meantime I have been reading a book called "The Washing of the Saints Feet" by J. Matthew Pinson (Randall House Publications). He adds an element to the significance that I believe has merit. Based on Jesus' response to Peter, "A person who has a bath needs only to wash his feet" Pinson suggests the washing sanctification.
I almost finished a first reading of the book. I will be going back.
RE: "For C. H. Forney, the definition of an ordinance can’t be biblically derived. It can only be based on what is acknowledged by common consent to be an ordinance or a sacrament, not from the study of Scripture, but from church history."
Relative to the Lord's Supper, Forney was on the right path, but stopped short of its logical conclusion. To fully understand the significance of the "breaking of the bread" to the Church, it is imperative to go to that Church, "the pillar and foundation of truth" (I Tim 3:15)and examine how they perceived it.
Pastor Bill, you also are on the right path, but you fail to grasp the mystery of what Jesus, in His divinity, gave us in the Eucharist.
Jesus left us with much more than a mere "sign" of the Covenant.
Note how the disciples, on the road to Emmaus, did not recognize Jesus until "he was made known to them in the breaking of the bread". Meditate upon this passage, Pastor Bill.
And, I'd recommend you go to the Early Fathers of the church and read what they learned from the Apostles about the meaning of the Lord's Supper. You could begin with Justin Martyr's First Apology Chapter 65-66. (easily found on line; one site is
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.viii.ii.lxvi.html
this site may not be the best though)
May God bless your search for His eternal Truth. My prayers are with you.
Peace,
Felicia Swavely
"And, I'd recommend you go to the Early Fathers of the church and read what they learned from the Apostles about the meaning of the Lord's Supper."
As I've observed to you in the past, Felicia, you guys determined whose writings would be preserved and whose would not.
Don't be too impressed by the consensus of the Fathers. Y'all rigged it.
pb
Bill,
You made this comment to Felicia:
Don't be too impressed by the consensus of the Fathers. Y'all rigged it.
I would be interested to know who "Y'all" is??
I have more to say about this, but I need to get clarified that point. I think I know, but before I jump off the plank here, I want to get that clarified. I think I know, but I want to make sure.
I think I would like to take up this issue under my own post.
my e-mail address is kzitsch@verizon.net
If it is permissable, I would like to post on this blog.
Ken Zitsch
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Bill,
(I'm referencing this post due to a mention of it on the current argument going on. So please pardon the backtracking.)
Could you respond to Felicia's citation of the Emmaus Road experience of "seeing" Jesus in the breaking of the bread?
Ever since the polity class in which I discovered Winebrenner's statement that the ordinance of Holy Communion is a "vessel of grace," I've been doing a lot of thinking about the CGGC "symbolic" view. Frankly, I don't agree with the idea that an ordinance is "just" a symbol. After all, in the 1 Cor. passage Paul points out to the Corinthians that people died for having participated in an unworthy manner. Would God punish people like that for abusing a mere symbol? People were abusing something intrinsically holy, and they paid the price.
I don't think Forney did anyone a favor by moving away from Winebrenner's thought. He should have focused on the blessings of grace the ordinances bring into our lives instead of devising a complicated indirect "philosophic" basis.
Am I moving toward a Catholic view of transubstantiation? No, but I do appreciate Calvin's view of "mystical union" between the physical and the spiritual. I don't normally look to Calvin, but on this point I have to agree.
Could it be that Forney's symbolic view of the ordinances is based more on Enlightenment positivism than on Scripture?
Let's go back to Winebrenner's view.
This comment has been removed by the author.
Ben,
Bill,
Could you respond to Felicia's citation of the Emmaus Road experience of "seeing" Jesus in the breaking of the bread.
For my convenience, could you refresh my memories about Felicia's citation.
Until then, Ben, I agree with you that there is more to the taking of the Lord's Supper than an act of intellectual remembrance.
In reference to Feet Washing, Jesus said, "Now that you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them."
I think Paul, who wrote Corinthians long before John wrote his Gospel, is describing an genuine phenomenon that one is blessed when s/he participates in the signs ,as Paul says, 'in a worthy manner,' and is cursed when s/he does it in an unworthy manner.
At Faith, we created out of what had been a Small Group Bible Study an "Acts 2:42 Group" in which we devote ourselves to the Apostles teaching and to the fellowship and to taking the Lord's Supper (every time we meet) and to prayer. The Lord began to bless our ministry at Faith almost immediately after we began to do that.
Bill,
This is what Felicia said,
"Note how the disciples, on the road to Emmaus, did not recognize Jesus until "he was made known to them in the breaking of the bread". Meditate upon this passage, Pastor Bill."
I believe this experience ties in directly to Acts 2:42, and I'm pleased to hear you say that your group is observing the "breaking of bread" on a regular basis. I felt like an oddball for instituting monthly Communion at Shawnee and then re-instituting it Mt. Pleasant. I'd love to see it every week, but frankly the church isn't ready for it.
Blessings,
Ben
Ben,
I'm with you, bro, on a weekly observance of the Lord's Supper. Doing so is straight out of the New Testament. I preach it at Faith. So far, the people aren't ready for it either.
I have no problem with my good personal friend, Felicia's observation. I do have trouble seeing the leap into transubstantiation for that point, though.
bill
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