What will it take?
During Worlld War II Will Rogers was invited to a discussion by the War Department on the danger of submarines. As German U boats were getting closer to our shores the government was trying to come up with some ideas to stop them. Will Rogers asked this question, "Will a submarine stay under water if the water is boiling?" He was told that U boats would not stay under in boiling water. So Will then suggested, "Let's boil the water." He was asked how this could be done and he replied, "I come up with the ideas. You guys will have to figure out how to make them work".
I am not Will Rogers but I have an idea. I will leave it up to you to work it out. Any suggestions will be read and placed in the appropriate file. So here is the idea:
Let's reorganize the CGGC on the basis of Ephesians 4--Apostlles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers. ( I don't think the Granville Sharp Rule applies to this passage so it is pastors and teachers NOT pastor-teachers)
Just a few observations--Given my dispensational background I will have to accept there are modern day Apostles and Prophets (which I am willing to accept). Secondly, we will have to agree on a definition of evangelist that is more in keeping with First century meaning. I would suggest the modern equivalent is closer to church planter than itinerant preacher.
Then we would have to define the role of pastors and teachers. Pastor is a New Testament term but does it refer to a localized/stay in one place office or is there a sense in which pastor and teacher are gifts given to the whole church and there is therefore some itinerant idea? In other words, can the gifts of pastor and teacher be shared between churches.
One more observation, it would seem to me that even if a prophet had a ministry in one church his salary should come from denominational headquaters. It is difficult to be a prophet when your income depends on the giving of a local church.
So that is my idea. How can we boil the water to see if it floats?
Labels: church planting, leadership
posted by vieuxloup at 2:28 PM
6 Comments:
A good start, Lew. I think we will be foolish if we don't do it.
sounds interesting. how do you define the 5 roles? and what's the granville sharp rule?
Walt, Thanks for joining the conversation.
As to the Granville Rule it is a Greek grammatical rule used to turn two words into one hyphenated word, most often illustrated by the word pastor-teacher. (A title used by some leaders to describe their role.) If it applied it would mean there are only four gifts given to the church in Eph. 4.
Here is the Granville Sharp Rule as restated by Daniel Wallace: In native Greek constructions (i.e., not translation Greek), when a single article modifies two substantives connected by kai (thus, article-substantive-kai-substantive), when both substantives are (1) singular (both grammatically and semantically), (2) personal, (3) and common nouns (not proper names or ordinals), they have the same referent.
So both words have to be singular and connected by a kai. In Eph. 4 both nouns are plural. This would mean that the role of pastor-teacher is a made up role with no New Testament foundation. So we are back to 5 roles.
Explaining the Granville Sharp Rule is easy compared to defining these 5 roles BUT let me try.
Apostle--Those people called out and recognized as the leaders of the denomination. There is never just one Apostle.
Prophets--People with a gift of revelation/insight able to provide counsel to the leadership. Their words are received humbly but not received without discernment. (The prophet Agabus had the right prophecy but the wrong interpretation)
Evangelists are those with a special gift of building a church among a new body of believers. They may have an itinerant ministry but it is not week to week. It may mean staying in one place for a period of years. (My doctoral thesis was on church management and this leader might be a 9/1 leader on my grid)
Pastors--Those with a gift of shepherding. This may be a paid staff position or may be a person otherwise employed but who is gifted with a heart for people. (Some leaders are not gifted this way. In my doctoral thesis this person may be called a 1/9 leader)
Teacher--Without trying to oversimplify, I would describe this gift as a gift of discernment, maybe the NT equivalent of the men of Issachar who knew their times and knew what to do.
Just a note about my management grid: The first number defines the attitude towards program and the second number defines the attitude towards people.
Like I said, it is easier to define the Granville Sharp Rule then leadership roles. But fools rush in in angels fear to tread.
hey vieuxloup, thanks for the welcome. just out of curiosity, where did you get that name?
thanks for the explanation, i don't know greek yet, so that was helpful.
i appreciate your attempt to define the roles. here's what i came up with, let me know what you think.
apostle: one who holds authority over a group of churches, and generally works at least in part with church planting. this is somewhat different from the other definition of the apostle as a bodily witness of Jesus' resurrection and/or author of Scripture.
prophet: i agree with you as someone who has special insight/revelation for the church, and is to be tested against Scripture. question: do we believe that God still literally speaks (audibly) to people?
evangelist: someone who has a special heart for the lost and reaching outside of the Body to proclaim the Gospel of Jesus. i'm not sure what you mean by itinerant, but if you mean they can be more or less programmatic, i'd agree, in that it can be anything from people who lead special outreaches to someone who simply wanders their area talking to people about Jesus.
pastor: again, i agree with you in that their heart is for people in the church. i had heard this word in Ephesians 4 is better translated as shepherd, which fits well with this interpretation. however, i would say that they can be either more priestly in caring for people or more kingly in administrative work, as a good shepherd both organizes the flock and takes care of sheep individually. (i'm borrowing my terminology from the idea that elders are gifted as prophets, priests and/or kings)
teacher: i think this is fairly straight-forward, as someone who is gifted at exegesis, at knowledge and wisdom especially in regards to Scripture, and who can teach and preach specifically from the Word of God. counselors may fall under either teachers or pastors, especially since they somewhat overlap. the teacher would be the prophet on the ppk model.
i appreciate your humility and applaud your explanation of these roles, and would appreciate your or anyone else's comments on my definitions.
another question: what would you consider the difference is between Biblical elders and what we call pastors? wouldn't all of these roles generally be associated with those in the eldership of the church?
Bill, How's Raystown? Maybe when you get back you can jump in here. I'm already further out in these waters than I have been been before. Maybe someone else has some input.
I will at least give my opinion about elders. I think the pastor is an elder among elders. The NT always speaks of a plurality of elders in each church. Maybe elder would be a better word for the "pastor" but if we call leaders Elder So and So we may be mistaken for another group using that title.
Lew,
Raytown was fine. Actually, we were in a small cabin outside of Hesston near, is it Seven Points? We went away to hide out and that's all we did. Slept in. I brought four audio books and listened away. Unfortunately half of them were busts. Went for a walk every day. Enjoyed the clean, fresh air. Did I say slept in? Spent a lot of time in meditation and reflection on my calling. Watched a few episodes of "Monk," which I can't get on my cable at home. Oh, and, yeah, I slept in most days--or did I already mention that?
We had planned to run over to Martinsburg but, as I assume you know, that didn't work out.
Thanks for asking.
I have a few thoughts I want to post on the blog and hope to be able to get that done soon.
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