An Example of APEST in Action
As someone who is interested in how good ideas might work out in practice, I found an interesting article by Alan Hirsch from Leadership Journal.
Hirsch tells us that his church movement in Australia made sure that they included a person from each gifting on their leadership team.
It is worth reading in it's entirety, but here is a 'practical' application:
"When facing any ministry issue, we begin by committing ourselves to the common mission of the group. We covenant to do whatever it takes to see our mission fulfilled. But this kind of interpersonal commitment requires a bond that goes beyond the professional relationships that exist on many church staffs.
We lived out our unity in Christ by living together, struggling together, worshiping together, praying together, and facing our problems together. It was the healthy trust developed on the team (fit) that allowed divergent opinions (split) to be expressed without fear of offending one another. It was the strong sense of commitment to one another that gave each member permission to operate out of his or her own ministry biases, and then unapologetically represent their perspectives on the issue at hand.
The apostle would press the need to galvanize the community around mission and extension. The prophet would challenge just about everything and ask probing questions about how God fit into our grand schemes. The evangelist would always emphasize the need to bring people to faith and expand the reach of the gospel. The shepherd inevitably expressed concerns about how the community could remain healthy amid change. And the teacher tried to discern the validity of any new idea from Scripture and history.
The presence of these divergent interests inevitably caused debates and arguments (contend). But we did not try to resolve disagreement too quickly—much to the discomfort of the shepherd on the team. In my experience, the greatest tension usually arose between the apostle (with the missional drive) and the shepherd (with the community health impulse), but we almost always managed to overcome conflict through dialogue and prayer (transcend).
Remember, we were committed to stay with the problem until we had assessed all options and had, through dialogue and debate, arrived at the best solution. As a result, the outcomes we reached were more full-orbed, faithful to God, sensitive to the needs of not-yet-believers, sustainable, mature, and theologically well grounded."
Labels: apest, church practice, leadership, Missional
posted by Dan Masshardt at 9:45 PM
21 Comments:
Dan,
Hirsch has similar account in "Forgotten."
It's what we strive for at Faith.
We self-consciously talk about who among us is APEST gifted.
We acknowledge our gift strengths and our gift weaknesses.
And, we stress the reality that we were designed to function as a body in which all the parts are interdependent.
And, when we achieve that, the Spirit seems to bless mightily.
Bill - perhaps you could share a story from time to time about that transition for you - the struggles, the blessings...
I think we (and others who have more reservations) need to see things in practice.
Since many of us will rarely visit each others churches, it might help us practically.
Dan,
First thing: The congregation I serve is only 18 years old and we haven't figured out how we always did it before.
I say from time to time that the first time someone says, "We can't do that. We've never done it that way before," and it sticks, I'm out the door.
We all joke about it but no one doubts it.
Second, I believe the APEST stuff. I teach it. I explain what it looks like when someone has one of the gifts. I just finished a series of messages, for instance, on nine truths about prophets.
I openly and unabashedly talk about what I think my gift is. I make it clear that I don't think I'm a pastor by calling.
I identify to the congregation who among them I think is apostolic and prophetic, etc.. I tell them personally and I do everything I can to empower those people to live within their giftedness.
When a sincere believer sincerely believes that he/she has a leadership gift, he or she is excited by being a good steward of that gift. Those people generally respond humbly. They, by definition, realize that they are interdependent on people with other gifts.
My experience is that the Holy Spirit blesses people when they live within their gift.
And, most of all, I pray daily for everyone I believe has a leadership gift.
(I talk about this in the next podcast to be posted. Not the one Brian just posted--the one next one on oganic somethingorother.)
I am going to be a pest about APEST but I have this gnawing question. I would like some dialogue on it. I will present it as a personal concern and phrase it this way "I do not see the gifts in Eph. 4 as being localized. To some extent each one is a gift to the universal church, even pastor and teacher. I do not see that each church must have an apostle. In fact that almost shakes me out of my sandals. If that were the case each local church could function independently of other churches.I take Paul to be saying these gifts are given to the church not a church."
I think we as a body ought to be asking for discernment as to who the apostles are in the larger body. The picture in the NT seems to me to be of a limited number and certainly not one in each congregation. I would say the same of prophets.
I appreciate what Hirsch has to say and his words are a welcome balance to what I grew up with but what if he is wrong--even if he is an apostle?
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Lew,
I do not see the gifts in Eph. 4 as being localized.
This is a good question.
Frost and Hirsch have an interesting take on this in The Shaping of Things to Come which Hirsch picks up in The Forgotten Ways, which I am still working through.
Briefly, they assert that these gifts are distributed throughout the church. They draw that notion from Ephesians 4:7:
"But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it."
They take that to mean that all believers have some manifestation of one of these five gifts. I'm not sure what to do with that. In
The Forgotten Ways, Hirsch makes a distinction between 'leadership' and 'ministry.' He says that there are some, for instance, who are apostles and others who are apostolic.
As I engage in ministry, I don't discern one of the five ministry gifts, even at the level of 'ministry,' in every believer though they may be there. But, I do find evidence of the apostol-ic, prophet-ic, etc. among more than a few in the Body.
I do not see that each church must have an apostle. In fact that almost shakes me out of my sandals. If that were the case each local church could function independently of other churches.
I don't think apostles under every rock either.
But, I do know that Paul talks about two to three prophets speaking each time the local church worships and adds that the others (prophets presumably) should be paying careful attention:
"Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said." (1 Cor. 14:29)
That leads me to think that it's reasonable to look for numerous prophets--or to use Hirsch's term, those who are prophetic--even in the local congregation.
And, as far as how many apostles there were in the early church I'm reminded of the obscure Andronicus and Junia of Romans 16:7 of whom we know nothing other than the passing reference to them one time by Paul. Paul calls them apostles and yet doesn't even list them first among his numerous greetings in Romans.
I think we as a body ought to be asking for discernment as to who the apostles are in the larger body.
I couldn't possibly agree with you more on this point.
It seems to me that APEST are leadership giftings and not a necessarily giftings of every believers. Every believer is certainly gifted for ministry, but I think some of those gifts may be others listed in different passages.
I think Bill's observation about seeing these in smaller doses among most people may be right.
Whether Paul intended each 'local church' to have a leader in each area, I don't know. I really don't think that it matters so much as that each church has and accepts the ministry of each of them.
That might be why it's important regionally and denominationally to have leaders reflective of the spectrum of God's gifting.
Maybe a town or an area could have several small churches sharing certain key leaders...I don't know.
It seems like there is more than one way for this to happen so long as the fullness of God's gifting is embraced and celebrated.
Following up Fran's comment about Jesus sitting down and penning 18 fundamental truths:
When does Jesus administer his gift/leadership/APEST test to his disciples?
That page must be torn out of my Bible.
in line with what lew said, i'm a little taken aback with the apostle bit. the more i think about it, the less it sits right with me, though that may be a misunderstanding on my part. are we talking about apostle in the sense that paul and peter were apostles? if not, what do we mean? if apostle means "sent one", then how does that idea gel with the image i get from apest of one who is more a leader among leaders, or one who casts vision?
bill, you mention andronicus and junia(s) from romans. i've always taken that passage to mean they are thought well of or are honored by/among the apostles, not that paul is saying they are apostles. i don't know the greek that well; is there something there that makes it more clear that they are apostles?
also, i always thought of those who test the prophecies in 1 Cor. 14 as being the elders of the church. is that a reasonable idea?
that being said, bill, i'm glad to hear of the openness and balance that you adhere to, and that you're looking for those who display leadership characteristics, presumably for the purpose of training them for future leadership.
dan m.,
i think you're right about the apest giftings being for leadership, with other gifts in other passages being more representative of the general body. i really like the idea of more connection between local churches, like sharing leaders with specific gifts.
brent,
i don't think that a formal "test" needs to be given for that kind of thing (though undoubtably there is one that someone made). i think it's more something that's rather obvious. like i don't need to give bill some sort of test or to have him tell me so in order to know that he's prophetically gifted. he's always bringing things back to God and the Scriptures, and i'm glad that he's in on this. i don't know him well, but it seems everyone on here knows ed rosenberry is gifted as a shepherd, but i doubt that anyone on here has seen some test score to show that. i think it's more straight-forward than something you need a battery of questions for in order to figure out.
Brent,
Re: "When does Jesus administer his gift/leadership/APEST test to his disciples?"
There are a few literary devises more powerful than the rhetorical question.
Yours is particularly powerful.
It would help me if you could break down your question into its pieces.
I could write a book in response to everything I see implied.
What exactly is the point you are making?
Bill,
My concern is with the pre-packaged, one size fits all, assessment tools that are used to evaluate and suggest a person's gifts or even leadership style. I am not saying that Jesus didn't watch his his followers closely and move them in specific directions.
I was reading John Dewey recently (The Public and its Problems, to be specific) where he makes a great point about the rise of democracy. To apply this to a current situation: We attempted to impose a democratic culture and political structure upon Iraq as if democracy is a template to be applied to various contexts. Yes, adjustments were made in Iraq, but it was a political structure that they neither sought nor fought for. What we see is the template and forget that the template was developed after much deliberation. Democracy, as we experience it in the US, is not a template to be applied.
My goal is not to make this a political conversation, so I'll get back to the APEST point.
Often times I think we forget that the SHAPE tests came about after years of struggles at Saddleback. The Network process came about after years of struggle and tinkering at Willow Creek.
If we are talking about recovering the full scope of the APEST gifts, then I'm all for it. But, and Brian and attest to this, I have a long history of resistance to psychologically driven assessment testing.
If THAT is what is being discussed here, it presents a huge problem for those who embrace even the minor points of the current emergence within Christianity.
Let me know if that helps make better sense of my question.
Brent,
"My concern is with the pre-packaged, one size fits all, assessment tools that are used to evaluate and suggest a person's gifts or even leadership style."
Me too.
In all of this my jumping off point is that, according to Ephesians 4:13, the reality is that Christ will continue to gift the church with apostles, prophets, evangelists, shepherds and teachers until we all reach unity in the faith, etc..
It is a truth that Jesus is providing us with an interdependent community of leaders who have a variety of gifts and that we are not making the best use of the spiritual and leadership He is giving us.
He promises us Plan A. We insisting on demanding that we will use our own Plan B.
I have no regard for these assessment tools. If one possesses one of the leadership gifts Christ provides, s/he will bear fruit of having that gift. We don't need an assessment tool to identify the gift or to affirm it.
Bill,
Hopefully this is the shared opinion of those others who are engaging this conversation.
Thanks for the reply.
Brent
brent and bill,
agreed.
Brent,
In all fairness, I think that APEST concepts, while biblical, are so far from our understanding that we're willing to take a test if, when we're finished with it, someone will tell what our gift is.
In my opinion, it is up to the community of disciples to identify the APESTs within it and since so few of us know what an apostle or prophet would look like if we saw one, we're glad for these assessments.
Does it make any difference in our dialogue about the APEST gifts to note that the Greek work used in this context is neither charisma nor pnematica but dorea? I think it does put the Eph. 4 gifts in another category than the gifts of 1 Cor. 12-14.
The APEST gifts are given to the church as a whole whereas IMNSHO (in my not so humble opinion) the other gifts seem to have a more personal gift in view. i.e. a person my be given the gift of teaching but the gift and use that gift in a specific context but God has given the church gifts (APEST) that seem in the context to provide leadership.
But does this really make any difference in the grand scheme of things?
Lew,
"Does it make any difference in our dialogue about the APEST gifts to note that the Greek work used in this context is neither charisma nor pnematica but dorea? I think it does put the Eph. 4 gifts in another category than the gifts of 1 Cor. 12-14."
Thing is that three of the five dorea gifts from Ephesians 4 are mentioned in 1 Corinthians 11-14: Apostle, Prophet and Teacher. It's hard to see that Paul is talking about apostles, for instance, in Ephesians as a different sort of gift than the gift of being an apostle in 1 Corinthians.
Brent,
I'm less opposed to tools than you are, but I don't think this is so complicated that you have to have a test. I think Bill is right when he says the major problem is this is just so foreign to us as a concept.
Actually it was SHAPE that woke me up a bit about spiritual gift tests. In SHAPE, Warren describes each Spiritual gift and asks, "Do you have this one? Maybe have this one? Don't have this one?"
And I thought, "Yeah, I like that." But I don't spend any time in our church on spiritual gift tests, etc.
And BTW, you sir, are a teacher, not a shepherd, not an apostle, perhaps some prophetic, not an evangelist... a teacher. I didn't need to see the test for that.
Bill, I agree that since the gifts are mentioned in both Ephesians and 1 Corinthians there obviously must be a gift of apostle, prophet, etc. even if a different word is used.
I guess the major issue is with the way Frost and Hirsch apply it.
"They take that to mean that all believers have some manifestation of one of these five gifts. "
I see the Ephesians 4 passage talking about the gifts of leadership Jesus gave the church (APEST). These gifted leaders should help us develop and use our gifts--Whatever they may be. I think Frost and Hirsch are mistaken in saying we all have some manifestation of APEST based on Eph. 4.
Lew,
I see the Ephesians 4 passage talking about the gifts of leadership Jesus gave the church (APEST). These gifted leaders should help us develop and use our gifts--Whatever they may be. I think Frost and Hirsch are mistaken in saying we all have some manifestation of APEST based on Eph. 4.
I haven't said that I agree with Frost and Hirsch that the all of us have the gifts. But, I think that the APEST gifts are dispersed more widely in the church than most people think.
There are three people at Faith who manifest gifts remarkably similar to those that bore fruit in Barnabas' life and he is called an apostle in the New Testament.
The person I know who manifests the gift of prophecy most purely--much more clearly than I find it in myself--is a woman in the Faith congregation.
While it is far from clear to me that every follower has an APEST gift, it is clear to me that when followers of Jesus are empowered to consider that they may have an APEST gift and they are willing to accept that possibility, many of them bear fruit of those gifts.
Brian,
Thanks for the reply (I tucked that comment into the other post to see if you were reading).
Like so many others, it was through many years of much trial and many errors, and NOT by taking a test, that I finally aligned my professional role with my giftedness. And I am thankful everyday that God designed me the way He did ("And BTW, you sir, are a teacher, not a shepherd, not an apostle, perhaps some prophetic, not an evangelist... a teacher. I didn't need to see the test for that.").
Thank you for the part that you played in that recognition. Your words from a few years ago ("Get out. Now!") remain some of the best ministerial advice that I have ever received.
Thanks.
Brent
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