Where Will Something Better Come From for the CGGC?
There’s been a lot of discussion in recent months on the blog about the need for change in the CGGC. I’ve been around the CGGC for 15 years, in the Midwest. I joined the CGGC when we planted our church, in the hope of finding connection, accountability, and the chance to partner with like-minded churches and leaders. I’ve made some good friendships in the CGGC, and I’m grateful for that, but over the years I’ve watched the CGGC become increasingly visionless and disconnected. I have to say that I’m pretty tired of it, and I’m especially tired of institutional leaders who are more of an obstacle to change and fruitfulness than a help to it. For at least three years now, I and my elders have been questioning why we should stay in the CGGC. In the last year, I’ve been blessed to develop a really good friendship with our new Director, Ed Rosenberry. Ed is a great guy, and I know he wants us to stay in the CGGC and help him work for change. I’m not sure he always understands the despair that comes from 15 years of commission meetings that have led to almost nothing (yes, I know he reads this blog—he’s heard all this straight from me… love ya’, Ed).
There’s been a lot of talk about how to move away from institutionalism and back toward “movement” recently. It sounds good, but it’s harder than most people acknowledge. Movements usually arise from those who reject the status quo and step away from it to do something new (even if they remain organizationally connected). Movements do not come out of mere attempts to reform institutions. The Churches of God cannot be “reformed” as a whole, simply because there are a lot of pastors and churches who will never go new places. And frankly, many in our denominational staff roles are not pondering the kinds of deep changes God wants to bring about in the western church, which means that whatever good change might occur will almost certainly not be cultivated through what we might call the “institutional channels”. Ed wants change, but he is also in the awkward position of having to help everybody play nice and try to go better places together. He has to spread his focus across everyone in the CGGC, and I think that’s right… that’s his job.
So I find myself wondering where change will come from, if it is to come at all. And I am increasingly convinced that the only way it can happen is for those in the CGGC who long for a more fruitful and Jesus-like church to become connected with each other and become the seedbed of a new subculture within the denomination. This is what many of us have longed for anyway, and it’s why many of you stay on this blog—it’s one of the few places of connection you have in the denomination (maybe the only one) where you can talk with other leaders who are willing to ask deeper questions.
I have been asking Ed to call a gathering of leaders/pastors in the CGGC who are hungry for something better in the western church and who would like to be a part of cultivating it in our particular denomination. There might be a person or two in denominational staff roles who would belong in such a gathering, but I see most of these folks being people who are out there leading churches. Here is the grid I would use to create the “invite list” for a first gathering: They must be leaders who:
1. …are very tired of the status quo, tired of being disconnected, tired of seeing little fruit.
2. …are already reading and thinking about questions related to the nature of the gospel, the mission of the church, making real disciples in our culture, etc.
3. …are trying to go better places with the churches they themselves lead, and taking at least a few risks to do that.
Some of us have talked about such a gathering being composed only of those who are apostolic and prophetic types. I’m not sure that’s right, though, because it may exclude some people who don’t fit that profile but who are thinking about the deep questions. And here’s the thing: The ongoing conversation we need to have is not merely about church planting and renewal strategies—the malaise of the western church is bound up with deeper questions about the very nature of the gospel itself, about discipleship, about the community of Jesus, about the mission of the church. Let me be specific: I don’t know where my friend Dan Horwedel falls in the 5-fold APEST mix, but when I see what Dan is reading, and I hear his comments, I want a guy like him in this gathering. There are probably others like him who should be there as well.
So what do I envision? At least two, and perhaps three days of semi-guided conversation about big questions, with the hope that some common pictures related to the deep questions might emerge. Secondarily, at least in time, we’d have to wrestle with how we connect more and fan the flames of such pictures in each other’s hearts, so that we help each other live them out (within ourselves, our church communities, our missional adventures). I would love to see what God might do among us if we would bother to gather. This would not be an official denominational event, though I know Ed would bless it and be willing to give us space at HQ in Findlay to hold it. It would involve LOTS of conversation, space for voices to be really heard, and I would hope it would border on chaos at times. I don’t want to bring guys together and tell them how to think—I want a few people to throw out what they are deeply chewing on, and ask, “Do any of you see this? If not, do you see something different? What is it?” The conversation might be divided into these questions:
1. What is the gospel?
2. What do good Jesus-communities look, feel, and smell like?
3. What is a disciple and how do we help people become disciples?
4. What is the mission of the church, and how do we see ourselves living and leading it?
(If we get to this)…
5. How do WE become a subculture wrapped around these better pictures, within the CGGC?
One of the problems is that I don’t know everyone across the CGGC, so I would only know who to invite from the Midwest (my list is from out here is 4-5 people). I’ve talked to Ed about helping to compile that list, but I think those who would know best are guys like those of you on this blog. No offense, Ed, but your tendency (and rightfully so) is going to be to include some people more entrenched in the institution, because you are “the bridge builder”. These would be good people, perhaps with good things to contribute to the conversation, but they would also likely stifle the conversation by their presence, and might be less willing ask these deep questions without the old assumption that we’ve already answered them satisfactorily. So I would suggest that the “invite list” come from the grass roots, and that we allow you to sit in with us for these meetings. (Ed, if there are others in official denominational or seminary roles that you’d like to be allowed to sit in on these gatherings, I would humbly ask you to bring their names to us and let us say “yes” or “no” to those suggestions).
So here it is…
1. Is anyone interested in this? If not, I wonder why we are even connected in the CGGC. So we can have ministerial credentials? At this point, I am thinking this: If there are not twenty people across this denomination asking these questions, wanting connections that are richer and which lead to more fruitfulness, and willing to come together, then I probably won’t stay in the CGGC. But if there are, I’m in, I’m willing to walk the road with such a group. It’s okay if there’s not interest in this—I just need to know.
2. Do you know, based on what I’ve said, who should be invited to such a gathering from the other regions? It might only be one, two, or three people. I’d like their names and email addresses. Please re-read my criteria—if they don’t fit the criteria, don’t suggest them.
You don’t have to post names and email addresses on the blog—my email is lifespringfran@hotmail.com. I’ll start to compile the list if people are interested.
I think that if a deep-thinking, Jesus-centered, disciple-making, missional subculture emerged within the CGGC, it would eventually attract others in the CGGC… people who want depth, people who want help finding Jesus’ way. It would intrigue—what is this that’s emerging? And given enough time, as the more stagnant CGGC of recent decades dies off (which frankly, is only a matter of time), the subculture I’m proposing would become the dominant nature of the CGGC. Does anybody have the motivation and cahoneys to go there?
Desperate for comrades—
Fran
posted by Fran Leeman at 7:27 PM
18 Comments:
Fran,
I appreciate someone finally asking the question and drawing out some specifics. I should probably take a bit more time before responding, but initially, here are my thoughts:
1. As far as my APEST results... I was 34-apostolic; 30-prophetic; 19-teaching; 16-evangelistic; and 14-shepherding. I guess that's why I am labeled a "whiner and complainer", though it's probably because of more than just my assessment findings. I'm not a real big fan of these tests either though.
2. I am definitely tired of the status quo and feeling disconnected; and I do want to try to take my church to better places; and have never been afraid to try new things. I am also glad to see I am not the only one who feels we are becoming increasingly visionless and disconnected. And that deeply saddens me.
3. I agree that there need to be some lines of communication opened up. Talks need to take place. Nothing is going to happen by just sitting on our butts hoping something will happen. And I think it's evident that hoping someone else will do something is futile.
4. I will admit again though, I have a problem with some lingering anger and bitterness I'm still trying to work through. I didn't get here in a day, and I feel pretty hopeless where our region/denom is concerned, and I'm hesitant to make a commitment when I've asked I-don't-know-how-many-times why any of us should stick around, and I have YET to get any kind of an answer from anybody. Which leads me to believe that either people just don't give a damn, or... they just don't give a damn about what I think.
So while I may not be to the point of throwing my hat into the ring, you have at least caused me to lift my eyes in interest. I am curious to see where others stand, because I have a feeling something is about to happen one way or another.
Fran,
Re: I have been asking Ed to call a gathering of leaders/pastors in the CGGC who are hungry for something better in the western church and who would like to be a part of cultivating it in our particular denomination.
You've been asking Ed. What has Ed been saying?
Fran,
Could we bring a person or two from our congregations who aren't nor will ever be credentialed by the institution but are already leading apostolically or prophetically within congregations?
To do so might create a too large gathering for a first meeting but may also bring some genuinely passionate, energetic and gifted people into the movement.
Yes, this also sparks my interest, but my concern is this sounds alot of what some of us thought grasstoots was going to be. And I know, I myself and some other have felt GR has fallen flat, or maybe even died out.
I'm still networked and in cooperation with some from the conference, but it doesn't feel like it is movement. From my perspective there is very little cooperation and partnership in the group, yet maybe there is (maybe I just don't know it). But if there is, we aren't doing a very good job of publizing it.
For instance our community is very involved in a mission in Haiti, not one related to CGGC, but one that is involved in church planting all over Haiti. Our church is now sponsoring 19 church planters in Haiti. A member of our church Mike Wales went and taught at a church planting conference in Haiti. We plan on going back soon. It costs very little money to plant churches in Haiti. We hope to travel back by the end of summer.
We are now struggling to find funds to start two new churches, here in the states. We want to export our style of Matt. 25 living.
We have the vision for what we call The Vine " A sacred space in the chaos" wich we are looking for a location in the KC MO Ghetto, and were looking for some one to partner with us to start a more traditional work in Topeka, KS.
Also we have a huge expansion project that we have committed to with New Direction House where we will house up to 50 people in the next 3 years. We have partnered with a sustainable housing developper and are trying to raise $250,000 along with him to house homeless people. We already have the 4 Acres of property.
These are things we are doing. To me this is missional living. What is everyone else doing? We could sure use some help. Do you need help? We don't have a lot, what what we have we will give.
We sent a nearly new projector to Pat in IL. He has sent us clothes and hygene projects for our ministry. To me those are the stories movements are made out of.
I guess my question is why aren't we focusing more on the things we talked about with grassroots. Why are we throwing another iron on the fire. With starting another group, and another conference.
In my short time in the CGGC, I have come to love this group. But if the ship is sinking as I think some are thinking (I'm not there yet) why are we going to spend our time bailing water, by doing another conference. Why not make a life raft, salvage what we have, and get back to work.
Fran, I know you have a big vision. I believe it to be from God. What sacrifices are you making for it to become a reality. Tell us your stories of how your church has decided to adopt a school, or you've started a house for unwed mothers ( a church that is less than 6 months old, w/ 4o people, in Pittsburg, KS has done that), or what ever your doing. Stories inspire, it let's us believe that what we want to accomplish can get done.
Movements tend, not always, but tend to move like wild fire. I don't feel like we as a group are moving. And what is scarey to me is that we are the movement. So why aren't we moving.
I believe God has called us to do great things. Now we need to stop talking about doing it, and do it.
I told my congregation we are going to do whatever we can however we can and people will join us, if we are doing what were called to do. God says in scripture "I have people in that town for you." If that is true they will join.
We just got a new place to meet a month ago. We have outgrown it. We were just invited to have our church take up residence at the three story Campus Ministry Center at KU. They dig what we do.
If we do what we ar supposed to do, I believe people will join you.
Would another vision casting meeting be nice? Yes, I love the fellowship. Is it needed? I don't know. If it doesn't cause the knigdom to grow, probably not. Why not have another GR meeting.
Some brief feedback to you guys…
Dan—I share your feelings of hopelessness and frustration, and what I’m trying to figure out is whether there are others who really care enough about seeing something better happen. You wrote: “So while I may not be to the point of throwing my hat into the ring, you have at least caused me to lift my eyes in interest. I am curious to see where others stand, because I have a feeling something is about to happen one way or another.” That’s why I put up this post—I’m curious to see where others stand. Ironically, I think your frustration is exactly the fuel needed for change. I’ll beg you to come if we get enough people to even do this. We need you, if there is in fact a “we”.
Bill—I think Ed wants to see better things happen, but I think he and I have had slightly different pictures of who should come to such a freshly called gathering. I believe it needs to be the people I described in my original post above. Do I think we could invite non-credentialed people? I don’t see why not, if they are the right people from a particular region to be there. I would probably want to see it limited to 20-25 people, but I could be wrong about that (at the moment I’m not confident there even are that many). You asking the question, though, made me think about a couple of my leaders here—they’re as frustrated as I am about where the CGGC is, and they are deep thinkers and men of action. Maybe they should be there.
Justin—I think some good things came out of the Grass Roots gathering, the connection between you and Pat being one of the best!. No, not a lot of action has happened since, but I can’t make that happen, that’s something that has to build. I suppose what I’d really like to see is something like Grass Roots (I don’t really care what it’s called) exist as the subculture movement of the CGGC.
You guys may have noticed that in my original post I used the word “subculture” and not “movement”. I don’t think we can make a movement happen—God does that. But I do think we could come together as a sub-entity of the Churches of God. And here’s an element I think is terribly important: It needs to be “identifiable.” Right now there are a handful of us reading certain kinds of books, trying to take our Jesus-communities better places, and tossing around a few ideas on this blog. But the sense of disconnection from the denomination remains, along with the sense that we are part of something going nowhere. But if those traveling in a common direction could come together, we would feel this way less, we could encourage and teach each other, and we could invite others (inside and outside the CGGC) to join us. Our church planting intern Steve Hinkle was telling me that this is what has happened among Southern Baptists—they formed the “missional network” within the larger denomination—and a lot of guys who probably would have left have stayed, because they have a place within the larger organization that they “fit” and where they can help each other bear fruit. I believe the CGGC needs an identifiable place within her where those asking the deep questions and wanting to see the western church reborn fit. Otherwise, a lot of guys like us will never join or join and leave.
I received this via email from another pastor-friend in the CGGC after my post:
“One thing I feel when reading your blog is that this is just more talk and no action, just like I get at most Conference and GC meetings. Yes, I am cynical about most committees, meetings, and task forces. So please do not take offense. Should I feel this way about the summit you are calling for?
I’m not suggesting merely a “vision casting meeting”, and we won’t allow any more damn committees. I’m suggesting a summit where we see if there are some common pictures of the gospel of the Kingdom, the community of Jesus, discipleship, and the mission of the church that we can come together around, and then form an actual entity within the Churches of God, with a name and the beginnings of a plan to support each other and where appropriate, partner together.
To me it’s not that complicated. Is there anyone willing to give a couple days of their life to try to do something, or should I forget all this and just focus on the great ministry our church is doing? If we are not going to DO something, why are you all a part of any group to begin with? You’re part of a group that has lost it’s spark and is dying—don’t you want to do something, both for yourself but also for other leaders?
It’s funny that people are asking me if this is “just more talk” (though I understand it), because I am the one asking for action. So again I ask… are we making a list of who will come?
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Fran,
I received this via email from another pastor-friend in the CGGC after my post:
“One thing I feel when reading your blog is that this is just more talk and no action, just like I get at most Conference and GC meetings. Yes, I am cynical about most committees, meetings, and task forces. So please do not take offense. Should I feel this way about the summit you are calling for?
You continued,
I’m not suggesting merely a “vision casting meeting”, and we won’t allow any more damn committees.
I believe that this is an important point. Show me the committees and meetings and "task forces" in the Book of Acts.
Yikes! If anything is an oxymoron it is the term 'task force.' They are never on task and the last thing those groups are is a force!
No, committees and meetings and task forces are not biblical. They are among the manifestations of the unbiblical and unbalanced shepherd dominated leadership culture.
Like your friend, Fran, I've had enough of that unbibical way of doing things.
Nevertheless, at the moment Peter said to Jesus, "You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God," Jesus began to talk about building the church--the assembly of His people.
We are created to be in community and to function symbiotically.
We need to assemble. But, no committees! Not another task force! We need to get together to seek the presence and the blessing of the Lord and to begin to do the work to which He has called us!
If we don't heed this call, we sin!
Fran,
We gotta do this and do it soon!
I began serving as a minister in the cGgc in 1976. I've been biding my time watching nothing grow. I'm almost out of patience.
Bill... I have to say I am amazed at how little response there was to this idea of gathering people. A few guys emailed me privately and said they feel the same way, but they're out of motivation to invest in change in the CGGC. I find myself in the place where I can't find more than a couple people who want to address the malaise of the western church within our CGGC context. The church in the west needs a deeper gospel, more transparent community, to engage missionally, and to discover a contemporary paradigm for the nature of discipleship (and then make disciples). The CGGC is rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic instead of asking good questions. I am out of ideas.
This is extremely discouraging to me. Do you think we're even re-arranging deck chairs on the titanic, or are we still in denial that it's even sinking?
But I understand the frustration and exasperation. And my hat's off to you, Bill, for hanging on since 1976.
Maybe the saddest thing is that I imagine there are people who are actually saying to themselves, "Good, maybe now these guys will shut up." And that's just what I do not understand. I don't understand how it's wrong to want more; to want to see more people grow in their faith; to see lives transformed; to see the church making strides in the world.
It seems all I'm ever told is "you've got to be patient" and "it's the system, not the people." You know, I can understand that change doesn't always happen at the snap of the fingers, but what exactly are we supposed to be patient for? I don't see that ANY change is taking place. What are we striving for? Where are we trying to go? What is being planned, thought, done???? And at some point it has to be people that make up any system. Are we saying it is impossible to change? If that's true, then wtf are any of us even doing in the church?
And, yes, I know there are denominations much worse than ours. I'm not trying to be critical of anyone. But i just don't see how we can be content to say, "Yep... I guess this is it. Don't worry; be happy." I'm glad there have been people throughout the ages who thought it worthwhile to fight the good fight. I'm glad there were people who thought ME worth sticking their neck out for.
Yeah, yeah... I know. People are doing things all over. And that's true. But I think there is something terribly wrong if we can't even get 4 people to want to discuss ways to "make more and better disciples." Oh, that's right, we don't use that anymore. What is it that we're about?
Fran,
Why don't you name a time and a place far enough in advance and I, for one, will do everything necessary to be there. And, the former editor of the Church Advocate, The Workman Quarterly, et. al. who attends Faith is as excited about being there as I am.
Dan,
But I think there is something terribly wrong if we can't even get 4 people to want to discuss ways to "make more and better disciples." Oh, that's right, we don't use that anymore. What is it that we're about?
Building Healthy Churches is what it is here in the East.
And now that I've had my nap I can see that 're-arranging deck chairs on the titanic' is a way of saying we are in denial. Doh!
'Scuse me while I take this iceberg out of my eye...
Fran and Dan,
It's time to stop feeling like Elijah. Neither of you are the only one not to have bowed his knee before the great and powerful idol of shepherd dominated warm-fuzzy stagnation.
Nor am I.
Let's lead: Pick a time and place and announce it and go there and be about the task of being the people of God living within our callings and, as Jesus in the the Great Commission says, "...obey(ing) everything I have commanded you." If no one else comes, well, 'where two or three are gathered...'
Let's go Nike.
Let's Just Do It!
I am interested in such a meeting. My only reservation is that it's tough for me to get to Findlay for a couple of days.
Fran and others who are considering their position (Affliation) in the CGGC-
I have a few questions. I am one of probably two pastor of the western region who participate on this blog (the other being Phil Wilson). I am new to the CGGC, and I don't understand the plite of your own individual regions, we have our own problems in ours.
But my first and probably main question is "What do you want to do in the CGGC that you are being prevented from now? One thing I enjoy about the CGGC is the lack of heavy handedness that you find in many denominations. We do a very different style of ministry in Lawrence. It has been catagorized by some as an Emerging Service Community. No one has told us what we are doing is wrong, and we don't look like a "traditional CGGC church" at all.
Second, In those things that you think the CGGC are lacking or preventing you from, have you found another group that doesn't lack in those areas or won't prevent you in those areas. If so who? Can we learn from them or should we join them now?
Third what is going to change in your church, your ministry, your relationships, what will be different?
The fourth question I have is has anyone who has had a complaint (me included) try to serve on a denominational level? I wish change could be bottom up (and sometimes it is), but often change comes from the top down. Have any of you all went after denominational comissions or employment. Fran I thought you would have been a great Church Planting Director, and you could have changed the face of the CGGC in probably as little as 10 years.
I am not saying any of you are wrong, I'm just trying to find my way as a little fish in this big pond. I lead the western most church beside the California Eldership, and maybe that's just the best place for me. Close enough to talk to people, far enough for people to worry about.
Justin's questions:
1. What do you want to do in the CGGC that you are being prevented from now? Nothing... is that the point of a good denomination? That they don't restrict me? Should I be glad to give 10% and show up for meetings as long as they don't restrict me?
I understand that some denoms are restrictive -- can't have a church name without the denom name in it, can't have a church without a specific leadership structure, can't stay at any one church for any length of time, ... And I'm grateful we aren't restrictive.
But is it so wrong to want more? And maybe I'm dreaming, but I can imagine a denom that is inspiring, that is visionary, that brings momentum with it, that is sparking us to ask great questions about the nature of the Kingdom of God, that is investing in ideas of what is important, like discipleship.
2. Have you found another group that doesn't lack in those areas or won't prevent you in those areas? I've not studied this, but as far as denoms, I think the answer is mostly no. But I can't say I'm satisfied to say that since nobody else is doing it, that we shouldn't... or even can't. We are not just griping.
We long for the church in the North America to stop it's decline and begin again to grow. We feel like it is going to take a huge turn in order to change this downward trend. And in the turn, we want to exalt Jesus Christ even more, we want to make bolder commitments for disciples, we want to expand missions even more, we want to use 21st century communication broader and more effectively, and we want to see communities change because of the presence of the Churches of God churches in those communities.
3. What is going to change in your church, your ministry, your relationships, what will be different? The problem many have is that they can't imagine how any change would help. We are mostly worried any change would be restrictive.
It is interesting to me that I spent three or four months with Glenn Smith (by email and phone) as my church coach. And within that 3 to 4 months, I began to understand enough to turn our church around.
I would hope if our denom became visionary that it would encourage, inspire, and teach us how to be more missional in our own communities and across the world.
4. Has anyone who has had a complaint (me included) try to serve on a denominational level? I served on Midwest Region Admin council for 7 years, as far as I can figure, I've served longer on Midwest Adcouncil than anyone else except our Director. I finally resigned before my head exploded. I have not served on a denominational level.
Brian-
I understand your frustration in wanting something more. I am in the same position in my region, wanting more connection and cooporation.
What my main concern is, are those who are talking about leaving the denomination. If you, Fran, Dan and others like you/us leave, I wonder where that leaves me and others who feel loyal to the CGGC for what they have done for us giving us a start. You know I'm kind of a Lone Ranger. I don't pastor in "normal ways", I tend to lean reformed in my theology ( I just don't think the tulip is a pretty flower), I'm not born and bread CGGC (heck before you Brian, I didn't know it even existed), my region is a Holiness region that I don't necessarily fit into. Yet with all that, I promised myself I would be Loyal to this group, because they gave me the chance that I was looking for, and you said they wanted to plant more churches.
If people like you leave, and there are no longer a models for missional churches in our denomination why would I want to plant churches for them?
I'm working on a team in Topeka, should I just tell them to be independent? You wouldn't take people off perfectly fine vessels, to join the Titanic, would you?
To me, the only way this ship changes course and stays afloat is if people like you, Fran, and others fight for change, serve on the denominational level (you have clout), and keep showing people how it's supposed to be done.
I applied for the field director position for our region. I want more missional churches to exist in the west. I can't serve on the denominational level yet. What we do only works on a small level. Once I can show people we can be successful living misionally maybe I'll have some clout too, and I can join the battle on the denominational level.
But as Paul would say, Please fight the good fight and see this bad boy through. Together we can make a difference! If Jesus changed the world, and time, with just twelve guys and a supporting cast of a few hundred. Us few 10 or twelve with our congregations can surely change a small Midwestern denomination. Especially if what we are trying to do is a calling from God.
Justin,
I'm not leaving. Fran has questioned whether he stays or leaves. I haven't.
I love your optimism about serving at denominational levels. That optimism has slowly drained out of my system.
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