Who Am I?
Ok, so we're in agreement that APEST leadership is very important. But I'm having a hard time discerning my own leadership gifting/calling within the paradigm.
I'm wondering how many of you are crystal clear and how many are still discerning for themselves?
I'd love to hear some stories of the process of discovery.
I feel like I am more spread evenly over the descriptions of a few different giftings. And then I struggle with the question about whether I'm sometimes just passionate about things that are not my own calling?
I realize that this is kind of a selfish request, but perhaps there are others as well who might benefit from the collective wisdom of the group in discerning for themselves.
Thanks.
posted by Dan Masshardt at 2:45 PM
16 Comments:
Dan,
I don't know if we've met, but I'll take a stab at responding to your post. I see myself (and I pray the Lord does, too) as primarily a Shepherd/Teacher, which probably explains some of my comments and posts on this site. I'm the senior pastor at a fairly old church (founded c. 1875) which is currently in a time of growth and a great mix of generations. (Half the congregation has been here less than 10 years, and our Ad Council reflects that.)
However, I have a strong interest in championing and defending APEs (love the acronym). I long for the expansion of God's Kingdom in our "tribe." And I'm excited to see it beginning to happen cross-culturally and here in the U.S.
I used to think I'd be a good church planter, and then I found out I'm not gifted in that way. Then I thought I'd be a good missionary, and then I found out otherwise. But what God has shown me over the past 10 years is that I'm pretty decent at teaching and mobilizing (particularly for missions). I cherish the idea of missio Dei, and I believe every church -- no matter how old or traditional -- can be an "incendiary fellowship" that reaches out locally and globally.
Because I'm a shepherd/teacher, I have one request for the APEs: please stay connected. I know it's been a rough road dealing with some of us -- sadly, the "shepherd mafia" is an apt phrase -- and I've done my share of defending colleagues who were/are being "whacked." But there are some of us who are excited about what God is doing. We're inspired by you; please don't despise us.
I say this because I'm troubled by the sense of dissociation I get from some church planters. When I check out websites and see no mention of affiliation with the CGGC and/or see statements like "we don't believe in denominations," it genuinely hurts. As Paul said in 1 Cor. 12: "the eye cannot say to the hand, 'I don't need you.'" We need each other.
Dan, I'm sorry this has gone off track from your request.
Dan,
I came to accept the reality of APEST in a remarkable way.
I am an insomniac. When I can’t sleep I do one of three things: Try to get back to sleep, pray or meditate. One night nearly four years ago I made the decision to pray. As I prayed, I felt the need to memorize Ephesians 4:11, a verse with which I was familiar, and the verses that come after it and to begin meditating on them. I memorized Ephesians 4:11-13 the next morning and began to mediate on them and received many insights. I realized that it was for the truth contain in verse 13 that I was directed to focus on those verses. Jesus will continue to give the church apostles, prophets, evangelists, shepherds and teachers until we all reach unity in the faith and become mature...
It was about a month later that I picked the book, THE SHAPING OF THINGS TO COME, off my pile of unread books and began to read it. By the time I got to the final section, the one on APEST, I discovered that the Spirit has all but read the material to me in my times of meditation.
Shortly after I read the material, as I was meditating on the truths, I began to ask in prayer/meditation for understanding of who I am in my calling. It was not long until I began to see that I am predominantly a prophet.
The understanding of the theological truth and the realization that I am a prophet and also that I am NOT a shepherd unleashed a sense of peace about who I am and what the Lord’s will is for me. I will never be the same.
Dan M.,
Thanks for this post (for so many reasons). I don't know if it's just because of our similar names or not, but I certainly share your feelings.
I don't know if this helps, but it may help someone else if not you. You can take an APEST assessment on Alan Hirsch's site at: http://www.theforgottenways.org/apest/ (it costs $10). There is a nice explanation there as well. There is also a nice Leadership article by him on "The Three Over-looked Leadership Roles" (APE) at: http://www.christianitytoday.com/le/2008/spring/7.32.html.
Personally, my scores were: Apostolic 34, Prophetic 30, Teaching 19, Evangelistic 16, and Shepherding 14.
All that said, I do think these things have value, and I consider myself a PASTOR - but with these leanings; however, sometimes I think we can read waaaaaay too much into them. I'm just not sure everything can be so clearly defined as we would often like to make it. I'm also a little leery of using one reference (Eph. 4) to base a whole system of thinking on. I also have the same question as you: "whether I'm sometimes just passionate about things that are not my own calling."
What worries me, personally, in many of these discussions is that we can often get pretty wrapped up in who is what, and I wonder if we don't forget about Jesus. Fran, Bill, Lew, Ben, and everybody else that writes here may be great guys... but not a one of them is the Answer (imho). Not for me, not for the denomination, not for the Kingdom. Seems we don't talk much about Jesus (or as much as I would like anyway), but maybe that's just me in my obtuse thinking.
I guess what inspired me to write this (at the risk of erasing it in frustration later) was stumbling across 2 Corinthians 3:4-6 this morning: "It is not that we think we are qualified to do anything on our own. Our qualification comes from God. He has enabled us to be ministers of his new covenant. This is a covenant not of written laws, but of the Spirit. The old written covenant ends in death; but under the new covenant, the Spirit gives life."
Anyway, maybe I misunderstood your question (and much of the other discussions), but I appreciated you asking it. Thanks!
Dan H. (from the Fairview in Indiana)
Dan H (Fairview),
I think this is clearly you're prophetic side saying, "It's about Jesus! It's about Jesus!" And you are of course correct.
I do however think this is a very relevant conversation. Your comment is exactly why we need Prophets in leadership to remind us, "We are not the answer. Jesus is."
Good stuff.
Brian,
Yes, I think you're right. Although I didn't intend to imply the conversation wasn't relevant. I was actually trying to be encouraging. I guess I'm better at being a grump.
And it's not that I am opposed to APEST. But my wife is always telling me that 'any strength taken to an extreme can quickly become a weakness.' I am fully aware of the dangers of the "shepherd mafia." But I don't think letting the APE's run loose is any better. I have plenty of friends who are former charismatics (mostly Assemblies of God) and they do not like hearing the terms "apostle," "prophet," or "evangelist." While they were having some success under that model at one time, they now seem to be known more for their scandalous immorality and abuses.
So, I am in favor of a multitude of varied voices. I think there is danger in allowing too few to speak (did anyone else hear the term "hot shots" used at Midwest Conference?).
But I'm certainly not an authority. In fact, I likely know much less than anyone else here. Just putting in my 2 cents.
Dan,
I have plenty of friends who are former charismatics (mostly Assemblies of God) and they do not like hearing the terms "apostle," "prophet," or "evangelist." While they were having some success under that model at one time, they now seem to be known more for their scandalous immorality and abuses.
You make a good point.
But, I would say that the fizzling out charismatic model is not what we're talking about and it's not biblical.
We often drive through Delaware to return home from trips to Virginia Beach. We pass a church, the Something Something Full Gospel on Fire for the Spirit Tabernacle. On the church sign instead of saying,
"Pastor: John Smith"
It says, "Apostle: John Smith."
That's an oxymoron. And it's typical of the charismatic abuse of the terminology.
The word apostle means "sent one." No church can have a settled person functioning as its apostle. It can have someone gifted as an apostle coopted by the Christendom myth serving as it's priest/pastor but it can't have an apostle.
It ssems to me that the enemy has done a good job of coopting APEST before its power could even be fully released.
Thanks everyone. I hope others might add to the discussion as well. These have been good encouraging, building thoughts.
I agree with Dan as far as building too much theology on one passage, and have argued that there may still be some interpretive questions to ask about the passage but it is God's Word and Paul is clear enough in it I believe.
I did take that online survey that you did Dan (btw, our churches have the same name too) a couple days ago and have been reflecting some on the results.
It is a simple and interesting 'test' I fould myself pausing at several places thinking that I could equally choose either of the two options. Anyway, I did what they said and just didn't think and hit something. :-) The result...
About as mixed of a bag as I could have probably expected.
It had me ranked as almost equal numbers in apostle and shepherd (!) with prophet only slighly behind, evangelist trailing be a decent number and teacher last.
Who knows, one could be a little off over the other based on a question or two...
Maybe this makes some sense of my approach here in discussions and elsewhere. Honestly, I do feel like I fit in almost everywhere, as far as comfort with different groups of leaders.
The last question on the 'test' was a choice between clicking on one of two words: mission or message. I waited the longest there. Honestly, they are almost the same for me. My thoughts are focused most on those things and I am often brash and sometimes insensitive.
My attitude is usually get on mission or get out of the way, which isn't very nurturing, or very mature for that matter. But at the end of the day I do love people deeply and I do care and so I am a crazy mess!
Thoughts?
this is what the website says about shepherding + apostolic:
"The SA care and develop people in order to be sent. The SA believes the best place for development is somewhere beyond where they are. They have a great sense of the unity of God’s people and are excellent in handling people within the Organization. The motivation of the Shepherd Apostle is to see a dynamic movement of people, expressing God’s love throughout the world. The SA loves others without compromising the urgency of going."
Dan, you asked a good question for which there is really no simple answer (IMO). But I certainly do have some thoughts on it, given in no order if priority.
First, I don't think one's gifts can be discerned in isolation. We need the community of God's people. I am not sure how to respond to people who believe they are apostles without any recognition by anyone else. (I have met pastors who thought they were the Holy Spirit but no one but the pastor's wife confirmed it.)
You have probably heard the story about the farmer who saw the letters PC in the clouds and went to Preach Christ. Many of those who heard him thought it meant Plant Corn. We are always at risk of misreading clouds when we neglect the church community.
I get the impression there are those who believe that in our context we would not recognize an apostle if we fell over him. I don't agree with that.
Anyway moving along, gifts must also be developed. Let's say Paul became an Apostle at salvation. He did not exercise that gift of apostleship until his first journey. It was Barnabas and Saul until halfway through the journey then the gift was more deployed and it became Paul and Barnabas.
I believe I know my gifting and it has been confirmed and is maturing.
Lew - You are unquestionably right about the necessity of community for discernment. Not only of one claiming a calling as an apostle, but even a shepherd, among the others.
And it probably will teke time and experience as well.
One growing passion that I have is helping people (other leaders) discern who the are.
It seems to me that we have quite a few 'pastors' who are serving in roles that are outside of their calling / gifting and and frustrated but don't understand why. I don't have all the answers but sometimes it just seems painfully obvious to me that people are serving in a context and with expectations that they will never live up to being who they are.
Gang,
Just a note about the assertion that APEST is based on one passage.
I suppose that there is a sense in which it is in that there is one passage that speaks about all five ministry gifts and calling in one place and describes the purpose that they exist. But, to suggest that this belief is based on one passage is hyper-Christendom-ism.
One of the major themes of the Gospels is Jesus devoting a lengthy period of time creating an apostle-based leadership culture. The so-called Sermon on the Mount includes teaching about how to discern true and false prophets. I Corinthians 12-14 describe the way that all the gifts, but clearly prophecy is most prominent among them, work together in the Body. Significant portions of the letters of Paul deal with the definition of what an apostle is and Paul's defense of his claim to be an apostle. In Revelation there is material relating to the identification of false apostles and the false prophet.
And, a major theme of Acts is how the church, built on the foundation of the apostles and the prophets with Christ Jesus as the chief cornerstone, empowerd by the Spirit, took the gospel to the ends of the earth.
Sorry gang, APEST is a core teaching of the whole NT from Matthew to Revelation, not a teaching that appears in one passage.
Significant portion
Bill,
Thanks for the other references.
One question that I keep having (for anyone)... You know, we're supposed to follow Jesus and all; supposed to 'become Christ-like'... does that mean each of us individually, or does that mean all of us corporately, or both? I mean, which of the five ministry gifts did Jesus possess (or which was he strongest in)? Would it not have been all?
That's where I have trouble labeling people as a "shepherd" or "apostle" or "prophet" or whatever. I just think sometimes we get too wrapped up in that stuff; and when we try to put all these organized and logical leadership scenarios together that will make our denomination, or Church (or church), be just like what we think it's supposed to be... we may just end up with nothin but another tower of babel. Sometimes you've gotta just trust the Coach and go out there and play ball (imho).
So, again, it's not that I disagree with the five-fold ministry (APEST) thing, I still just think we need more Jesus. But that's just me, and I appreciate everyone else chiming in with what you think too.
Dan H,
I need to say that you are making a crucial point in calling us to make Jesus the center of all things.
Regarding Christlikeness: I think that the passages on spiritual gifts make it clear that we will achieve Christlikeness out of the way He has gifted us and by understand that love is the most excellent way. For me to be Christlike will look differently than for anyone else to be Christlike.
Re: That's where I have trouble labeling people as a "shepherd" or "apostle" or "prophet" or whatever. I just think sometimes we get too wrapped up in that stuff; and when we try to put all these organized and logical leadership scenarios together that will make our denomination, or Church (or church), be just like what we think it's supposed to be... we may just end up with nothin but another tower of babel. Sometimes you've gotta just trust the Coach and go out there and play ball (imho).
I think Alan Hirsch made an important point by merely giving one of his books the title, THE FORGOTTEN WAYS. Due to the Christendom myth, we are in the position of trying to reconnect with the work Jesus has been doing among His people all along. We have centuries of doing it wrongly in our faith culture. Setting things right is a difficult task--as Winebrenner acknowledge is his pamphet. I don't know what we're supposed to do, Dan. It won't glorify Him not to try to understand how He is gifting us simply because the church quenched the Spirit for more than a millennium.
I agree we need more Jesus but then, it is HE who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets.... I'm not sure we can have more of Him without APEST.
What unites us is more important than what makes us different. If you don't love and care for people, you are not a mature Christian. If you don't love Jesus and the Gospel and really want it to go to the ends of the earth as well as next door, you don't get it. These are not primarily gifting things but Christian things.
However, if we don't grasp the fact that not all Christian leaders are the same, we will not be in a good place. It cntinues to cause much - sometimes unintended - damage and frustration for s many to serve where they are not gifted
Yes the apostle / prophet etc is all over the N.T. But the focus is usually on these 5 as THE callings/giftings. I'm not disagreeing with this at all, as the first line of this original entry stated. I do think that we need to continue to do some work on this passage though. I'm willing to take it on soon as an in depth study. It would be great to dig I to it together.
So, yes Jesus. Live God. Love people. Live around God's mission. I believe these are the primaries of the faith.
But we must not ignore our differences. And while figuring it out exactly for ourselves is not the most important thing but it is something worth reflecting on for the most impact and to minimize unseeded pain and frustration.
Dan, on the point of this post... I had someone prophesy over me when I was 20 years old that I had an apostolic calling. I dismissed it as something I had no idea how to process. I slowly came to terms with the fact that even when I was "pastoring" and things were going well, I was obsessed with four things:
1) Making sure we had the gospel right, which for me meant continually asking questions and rethinking.
2) Figuring out how to do and say the gospel in a way that those who were not hearing the way others were saying it could hear it.
3) Looking for how me or others could extend the gospel into new places.
4) Recognizing who around me God was calling to leadership, raising them up, and training them.
I feel like I tried to just be a pastor (and I appreciate those who have this as their primary shape/calling), but I kept being pulled into these other things.
By the time I took the Hirsch test, I knew what it would say.
I agree with those who say we can make too much of all this, or can try to be too precise... yet this IS the NT leadership model, and as Hirsch has reminded us, when we see it and live it together without fear and without ego, it is genius.
Dan et al,
As I took the Strengths Finder 2.0 and saw that almost all of my strengths are Strategic Thinker, it struck me that our church has very few Relationship Builders. So now I am purposely searching for them, starting with our current group. Maybe we've missed them and not equipped them to be fruitful as God has gifted.
You may be right. I may be trying to build something more than God has given me. I hope not. (And I know you didn't say I personally was, but it is a good point). But I'm trying to make effective use of our leaders' different personalities, strengths, and gifts.
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