Organic Discipleship
In the Missional Leadership Initiative in the CGGC, we are finishing out the first year of a two year process.
We are currently being challenged very heavily to "change the scorecard."
This has proven to be a more challenging task than I expected. It is a fact that at our church, The Crossover, we count two things --
1. Do you attend the Sunday morning service?
2. Do you attend a home group?
My desire is that The Crossover be about two very focused things --
1. Find ways to introduce people to Jesus Christ.
2. Create regular discipleship opportunities for people who know Jesus (and maybe even for those who don't)
So we are finding that what we are counting isn't creating our desired intentions for people. We have a lot of questions we need to be asking ourselves. Again I will give two.
1. In what context would it be our best opportunity to introduce people to Jesus? And then how can we count the people who take this opportunity to share and the number of people who respond positively?
2. How do we define a disciple? What should be the expectations of a disciple? And then how can we count people who meet these expectations?
As Bill looks for a model to implement, I think these are the two key questions that must be answered before we create a model.
Labels: church practice, discipleship, leadership, mission, movement
posted by Brian at 9:33 AM
19 Comments:
brian,
in some ways, i'm glad you're willing to admit to difficulty. that's refreshing to some of us, that everything isn't neat and tidy.
one question: what's the end goal of making disciples anyway? might sound like a dumb question, but sometimes i (and probably others) need to be reminded of why we do it.
We have been about the task of making 'more and better disciples' in the CGGC for about 20 years now.
What is it that we are making more of?
What are they getting better at?
I don't know.
I don't think we've even defined the term that is the essence of our goal.
Am I wrong?
A disciple of Jesus is someone who believes in him, learns his ways, seeks to follow and obey everything that Jesus commanded. And inviting others to walk the same path.
Jesus opened the way for us through his death and resurrection, to follow out of a new heart and not trying to earn our acceptance.
We follow not trying to earn God's acceptance, but in response to the cross...
More - more people following Jesus. Better - following Jesus with increasing faithfulness and consistency.
Why? For one, because he told is to (that's good enough for me). Two, because it's the only life that truly glorifies God. Three, it's the life that God intends for us - for our joy and the fullest expression of being human.
Just my thoughts, of course...
Dan, your comments are excellent, but then again I agree with Walt, it isn't that neat and tidy either.
Here are some pieces I've been thinking about:
1. Disciples should Read, Pray, and Bless. Read the Bible, listen to God, and Bless those in their path. This should be the daily routine of a disciple.
2. Disciples should take a look at the darker parts of their hearts and through prayer and trusted friends, begin to move the darkness out of their hearts.
3. A disciples should feel like he or she is following Jesus, just as simply as Abraham followed God out of the land of Ur. Rather than feel like he or she is immersed in religious exercise, a disciple should recognize that Jesus is moving about the community, beckoning the disciple to follow and bless.
4. Sometimes (maybe often), Jesus will lead the disciple into an uncomfortable spot, being asked to bless someone who does not appreciate or deserve the blessing.
Brian,
I have a question, and I'm not sure I really know the answer, but am actually still processing it from my days in Burr Schilling's evangelism class at seminary oh-so-long-ago. But... are you saying that evangelism and discipleship are two different things? Your first point is to "introduce people to Jesus" (evangelism?); and then for those who know him (and maybe those who don't), it is to disciple them?
Could it be that this is what's wrong with our efforts to make disciples? We have always tended to only think about making disciples of people who are already Christians. I think Jesus' call to "go and make disciples" was much more in line with 'making disciples of people who DON'T know him.'
I'm wondering if part of our problem is that we THINK we have introduced people to Jesus, and then we can't understand why they don't grow as disciples. When maybe all we really did was just introduce them to our church organization, and they've never really figured out who Jesus was.
I don't know; this is probably not making sense. I think you're right about needing to introduce people to Jesus and help them grow in their faith. I'm just not sure if it can be broken down into a 2-step process, or if it's much more one-in-the-same.
Maybe I would be more comfortable saying that discipleship is the total thing - introducing people to Jesus AND helping them grow. But maybe that's what you're saying anyway.
(sorry, I need to write things out in order to think).
I totally agree with you Dan.
I want the introduction of Jesus to be the first step in discipleship with no expectation in the church that someone can meet Jesus and then not be discipled. There is an expectation of a next step (or continued steps).
The problem is that we expect people to meet Jesus at Sunday morning church. And we have to create an expectation that people will meet Jesus almost everywhere else.
So when I separate it out, that is my point. But you are causing me to rethink how I want to introduce this to our leaders. Thanks Dan!
Gang,
These have been good comments. This is a much needed discussion.
Do you know that there is no New Testament word that even closely resembles our word "evangelism."
There is a Greek verb 'evangelize." It is the word euangelizomai. I've been doing a pretty careful word study on it. It doesn't mean what we think it means.
IMO, we need to define discipleship and we also need to come to grips with the reality that evangelism, as Christendom defines it, isn't in the Bible. Until we do those things we are going to be missing a very important mark.
guys,
i've liked most of what's being said here. as far as i can tell, it lines up well with Scripture, and that's what makes it good, right?
dan m.,
i think you've defined things pretty well. as brian said, the process where those ideas meet real life is messy, but i think your ideas are sound.
part of my question is that it seems to me, that much of what we do in training disciples in Godliness, is how to react to situations in Godly ways, or how to reproduce themselves, without much said on how to be proactively Godly.
i was just talking about this with one of my volunteer leaders last night. i draw the answer to the question of the goal from Philippians, "i press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus." and it seems to scream at me from Scriptures that that goal is God Himself, and finding our utmost joy and satisfaction in Him.
so proactively seeking to see God, to know Him more deeply, is my ultimate goal. and from that desire, i work for the good of others, because in loving others i see more of Jesus. i give, because in giving i can joyously reflect what God has given me. i train others in the things and ways of God, so that i might see Him in them, and delight in that. i make art, and do engineering, and exercise, because in these things the glory of God is revealed to those whom He has given eyes to see, and that is my treasure.
i wish my life reflected the absoluteness of these statements more, but that's what paul himself says a few verses earlier, "not that i have already obtained it, or am already perfect, but one thing i do: forgetting what is behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, i press on toward the goal..."
that's how my Christian hedonism informs my walk with the Savior and my ministry in His Name. i think all the rest of what you guys have said flows out of this desire and conviction.
--------------
one last thing for bill:
i agree with you that euaggelizomai means something somewhat different than what we tend to think of. i think the error in that is that we have taken the Gospel of adoption by justification in Christ, and have made it "Christianity 101": something we get at the beginning and then move past so we can get to the ethics and/or the deeper things of the faith.
in reality, if the Gospel is truly the center of the faith, as we say it is, then you never get past it. if the Gospel is the blazing center of God's glory, then all of our life is lived out of it, and so both believers and pagans need to be constantly reminded of the work of Christ and what that means for us.
so in my mind, evangelism and discipleship are the same, because they both mean growing people in Jesus, particularly through the Gospel. does that line up with your study and thought, bill?
walt,
Good thoughts about the significance of our corrupting of the meaning of euaggelizomai. I will probably be working this out in my own mind for the next year. You have given me a nice head start.
Thanks.
One thing I'm sure of is that there is no such thing as what we think of as evangelism in the New Testament. Another is that evangelizing has much more to do with transmitting the message of the Gospel than it does with recruiting unbelievers to come become believers.
bill,
i think you've lost me. i know we can't force people to become believers, but isn't one of our hopes in helping unbelievers to understand the Gospel that the Holy Spirit will regenerate them and they will become believers? isn't that why paul speaks of becoming "all things to all people so that by all means i might save some. i do it all for the sake of the Gospel, that i might share with them in its blessing."?
walt,
Don't know what I misspoke that lost you, but yeah, I agree with you.
This conversation has really lit up. Cool.
I never claimed that it was neat and tidy. Being a disciple of Jesus is very messy. I don't think we can wrap in up with a nice bow, but we can use meaningful language to talk about being a disciple.
I think that a lot of our problem is in perspective. We've made the gospel about dying and going to heaven and not going to hell (I'm not neglecting that - I believe in those things very much) But it is shortsighted and misses the biggest and best part of the picture.
Some of our struggle is to put Jesus and Paul together. Others might contrast the two (higher criticism) We don't do that of course but much of the evangelism tradition has been based almost exclusively on Pauline doctrine.
What we believe is vitally important. You can't be a Christian and not believe in the sacrificial death and bodily resurrection of Jesus, no matter what you do.
However to think that one can believe all that and have it not be RADICALLY TRANSFORMATIONAL is the sad state of what we've made discipleship.
The apostles didn't preach the beatitudes to Gentiles (or Jews). They preached a message that needs to be responded to (Romans 10 for example) in the kind of belief that affects everything else.
I think we can invite people to live Jesus centered priorities, but the content of the gospel preached cannot be omitted.
Dan asked Bill: If you want me to understand you more clearly, tell me how to get to where you are.
Dan, while I can't speak for Bill, in listening to his argument for APEST he has clearly stated that it is for the apostle not for the prophet to put together the details of how. That is the joy and wonder of APEST leadership. It is ONLY in joining together in unity that we reach the place that the Lord calls us to. Bill's role as prophet is to point the way. The apostles develop the plan. The teachers explain the plan. The shepherds bind up the wounds that the prophets and apostles inadvertently cause - and hold us together.
David, I believe you are basically correct. I was referring more to the paradigm shift that seems so radical and is more than just embracing apest. Thanks for being a part of this conversation brother. Where do you see yourself fitting in to the variety of leaders.
Bill, I think it's time we spent more time talking about the bible than growth strategies in our churches and conferences. Is that one aspect of repentance?
I see that while I composed a reply to Dan - Bill quite competently spoke for himself and our posts crossed. Sorry for the intrusion.
David,
I see that while I composed a reply to Dan - Bill quite competently spoke for himself and our posts crossed. Sorry for the intrusion.
You said it better than I can.
M.
Bill, I think it's time we spent more time talking about the bible than growth strategies in our churches and conferences. Is that one aspect of repentance?
Well, my experience in the CGGC is that, for about 70-80 years we have done a good enough job talking about the Bible. It's how we actually change because of what the Bible teaches that we don't do well. That is, in my opinion, where many of our fads come from.
For example, in the late 80s we jumped into the biblical teachings about spiritual gifts and for a time appropriate for the length of a really exciting fad to come and go. But, talk is just about all we could do. We took enough spiritual gift inventories to keep that industry going just for our little old selves.
But...
...if we actually had put all that we said about spiritual gifts into action, we'd be an APEST community by now. But we are not. So, now, one of the fads of the hour is APEST itself but we're not really doing anything meaningful with it.
So, unless this becomes the time we repent, I can guarantee you that soon someone else will write a new book with a new idea that will distract our attention and, suddenly, APEST will just be a faded fad.
So, no. In the CGGC, I don't think that TALKING about the Bible has anything to do with repentance. Talking about the Bible seems, in our shepherd culture, to be the way we keep ourself from repenting.
No, I think we need to try to come together in sorrow and to confess every sin that we can identify in our church culture, to define repentance and to empower our prophets to scream about truth and our apostles to prayerfully chart a spirit-led course in community and conversation with our prophets.
And...
...and this will be the hardest thing. It's what we have never done before. It may be what we are incapable of doing. It may be what ultimately kills us...
...we going to have to tell our shepherds to step away from the power and to wait to be told about the foundational vision that comes from the Lord and is being announced by the apostles and the prophets. We're going to have to tell the shepherds that it's time again for them to be shepherds in the Church of God--nothing more, nothing less.
They won't want to do that. They have ways to keep power. That's what the shepherd mafia is all about. That's why shepherds are still in control after all these decades. But, we're going to have not to let them whack APEST--or repentance.
That's what I think it's time for.
Bill,
This is a been one of my biggest frustrations. Our region brings in speakers to conference who are exploring these core issues of the Gospel, and as I talk with people, they are very intrigued by the presentations. And then... nothing.
I suppose it is the thought that they will have it presented but it is up to individual churches to do something with it. I have always disagreed. Set some vision! Show some leadership! Light a fire to move churches in a better direction! Inspire churches to take uncomfortable steps!
What people hear me say is "Shove it down their throats!" But I know better than that. The next step for Regions is to lead the churches in a good direction.
Amen, Brian. You are thinking and speaking apostolically. You are also being whacked by the, well, you know.
I didn't even want to listen to Ed Stetzer at General Conference because I knew ahead of time that we'd do nothing with what he said--no matter if he spoke a word directly from Jesus and we all knew it.
My heart still breaks over that 'Gathering' in which Glen Smith ended by challenging us to make a commitment to plant churches before we left the room. We then had the typical shepherd kumbayah moment, hoping that everyone felt good, and acted as if Glen had just farted (can I say THAT here?) really loud and we were all embarrassed for him and were pretending that he wasn't in the room. After all, how could he know that speaking apostolically and expecting a response is flatulence (can I say that word?) in the CGGC?
My idea for the next General Conference is that instead of having a guest speaker to ignore and waste money on that we should invite Carrie Underwood and ask that she sing "Jesus Take the Wheel" as her encore. At least, we can leave humming something spiritual.
Don't get me wound up!
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