What is a Disciple?
This is a core question, isn't it?
It's a term that we toss around all the time. There has been some indication here and elsewhere that not everybody has the same idea of what it means to be a disciple.
I'm curious whether or not we are basically on the same page here, or whether there is a wide divergence.
Our mission is supposed to involve making 'more and better disciples.'
Jesus commanded his disciples to go and make disciples.
So, what is a disciple?
In a followup post, we'll talk more about how one is made.
I'll post my own thoughts in a comment. I'd really like to hear several people weigh in on this. If you're a blog reader but haven't posted, consider jumping in on this one.
Labels: disciple, discipleship
posted by Dan Masshardt at 8:43 PM
32 Comments:
What is a Disciple?
Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
Before his ascension, Jesus left some final instructions. He told his disciples to make more disciples. It seems to me that he then describes basically - and fairly simply - what that means.
“Baptizing them” - The New Testament fairly consistently says that baptism is a part of proper response to the gospel message. It is not an isolated practice, but associated with repentance and faith.
Acts 2:38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins.”
Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip as he proclaimed the good news of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
A disciple must, of course, believe in Jesus.
“Teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you.” - I believe that is is simply the core of what it means to be a disciple.
The corresponding position to teacher is learner. Disciples are learners. We learn from the master, Jesus. We also learn from other disciples who are learning from and following Jesus.
Learning to obey Jesus is the fundamental task of disciples.
John 14:15 “If you love me, keep my commands.”
We often wonder, which ones? The great commandment - love the Lord, love your neighbor? Take care of the least of these? Love your enemies?
While I believe it is helpful to go back to core ideas that encompass many others, like the great commandment, there is also a danger here.
The answer is not in choosing specific commandments, but all of them.
When we pick and choose certain things we can move ourselves away from the Bible - more specifically the Gospels. The Gospels are the field manual for disciples. Disciples of Jesus will keep going back to the teaching of Jesus to learn not only what to believe, but how to live.
So, my simple proposal is this: A disciple is someone who is learning to obey everything that Jesus commanded.
This includes what to believe about Him, how to view and treat others, how to live in this world in light of the world to come.
What are your thoughts?
Anybody?
While these aren't my thoughts, the sermon at our church on Sunday addressed this topic. Here's the link to the podcast if anyone's interested:
Discipleship
It's part of a larger sermon series on Vision, so you can scroll down the page and select the sermon entitled Discipleship.
Brent,
In this sermon, his working definition of discipleship is 'becoming like Jesus.'
So, a disciple is someone who is becoming more like Jesus.
Does this reflect your own thought as well?
Caught this line from Pastor Derek:
"Paul and the early pastors..."
Who?
***
He quotes the 'take up your cross and follow me' verse but ignores the one that comes before it:
"Anyone who comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children...can not be my disciple."
I'd love to know why.
***
Good line: "Become a contributor, not a consumer."
***
His definition near the end has a lot to do with knowing enough to teach others in a class or small group and investing internally in the work of the congregation.
***
He talks a lot about prayer and worship and being in a small group--again very internally focused aspects of following Jesus.
***
He seems to define contributing (as opposed to consuming) as supporting the activities of the congregation, i.e., discipleship is 'giving back to the church.' Oh, and financial giving.
****
(What, Brent, are the five new initiatives?)
***
He makes passing reference, nonspecifically, near the end to 'contributing to the needs of Harborcreek.' There's promise in that.
**********
Brent,
I hope others will listen and comment.
What I heard was pretty internally focused. I didn't hear a single call for incarnational ministry.
It didn't reference, as I noted, one of the few direct teachings of Jesus about discipleship, i.e., that to be able to be a disciple one must hate father and mother, wife and children, etc. To Jesus, that was pretty basic stuff.
Being a disciple seems to have to do with praying and giving financially and being intensely involved within the congregation, not being intensely involved outside the congregation and loving one's neighbor as him/herself.
I'm curious, Brent, how adequate was this definition for you?
bill,
"Anyone who comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children...can not be my disciple."
It is possible to quote from Matthew about taking up one's cross and not include this text as I believe it's only found in Luke. Matthew does, however, include statements from Jesus about' let the dead bury their own dead', and 'losing one's life.'
It's worth noting that we have so little idea of what this can really mean compared to many others around the world (many Muslims for example) who literally lose their family for becoming followers of Jesus.
How would you incorporate that teaching of Jesus into your understanding of 'disciple.'?
It is possible to quote from Matthew about taking up one's cross and not include this text as I believe it's only found in Luke.
In Matthew what comes before is, "Anyone who loves his father and mother more than me is not worthy of me..."
How would you incorporate that teaching of Jesus into your understanding of 'disciple.'?
Clearly, we don't face the challenges others do today and have in the past. However, it's not impossible to understand that love for Christ first can have meaning even for us.
I know Evelyn loves Jesus more than me. She knows I love Him more than I love her.
The idolatry of family is certainly prevalent in our culture today.
That love for Jesus would supersede all other human loves seems fairly basic (even if difficult to live out completely consistently).
Now that you bring it up, I'm curious how many of the people in our churches would agree. Maybe I'd be disappointed.
I have been off the blog for a couple of months. At the risk of having missed the heart of this discussion, let me share the definition that we use at Landisville
A DISCIPLE IS A PERSON LIVING IN DAILY OBEDIENCE TO THE WILL AND PURPOSE OF GOD COMMITTED TO BEARING FRUIT FOR THE KINGDOM. - Steve Dunn
I'll address some of the questions about our church later in this post, but I'll start with my own perspective.
I'm okay with a working definition of "becoming like Jesus" but I stop short of a "what would Jesus do?" mentality.
I recall reading/hearing Bill Easum and/or Tom Bandy discuss the Emmaus story in Luke. They were making the point that Jesus was walking away from Jerusalem (i.e. the established church) while those he encountered were only interested in having him return to those who already believed. It's a bit of a rhetorical question to ask what the church would look like today if Jesus would have kept walking toward the Gentiles at that point.
Now, to our church:
Of all the things I find frustrating at our church (such as an unhealthy fascination with technological innovation and buying into the myth of a "flat" organizational structure) I've never had any issues with the theology or interpretation of scripture. The main thing that I can say in response to some of the concerns, is that this sermon was only one part of a larger series on vision. A few of the initiative include starting three new multi-site campuses over the next few years (there is currently one in the Harborcreek community, thus the reference to that area), establish two church partnerships around the world (the pastor who spoke is flying to Haiti next week to lay the groundwork for the first), and build a coalition of at least 50 churches in our local community to meet both spiritual and physical needs (there is a quarterly ServeErie event that has sent out hundreds of people to serve the community).
Of all the items that could be said about this particular church, being "inward focused" is not one of them.
Perhaps there is a bit of extra concern and conversation about money, but I've seen how that money is being used to impact the local and worldwide community.
There is a sincere effort to reach Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria and the ends of the earth.
Like any group of sinful humans, the church isn't perfect. But, to be honest, I have to say in all my years of attending churches, this is the closest I've seen to what Jesus had envisioned during his earthly ministry (and, by the way, it's not even part of the CGGC!).
I've invited the pastor who delivered this sermon to join this conversation. I've learned a long time ago that I can't speak about why someone did/did not emphasize certain points.
Steve- thanks for jumping in and giving a working definition of 'disciple.' One thing that your contribution and my proposal have in common is obedience.
Brent- Probably engaging in conversation about the total ministry of your church is not necessary from this discussion. It seems like an exciting body to be a part of.
It seems like 'becoming like Jesus' is a popular idea. One large local church in our area has that as their web domain.
There is certainly a theme in Scripture of emulating the qualities of God - 'Be holy as I am holy.'
However, I can't think of many examples of Jesus teaching that our goal ought to be becoming like him. There are, of course, certain qualities of Jesus that we cannot and will not share (divinity primarily).
I used to always think instead of WWJD, we should be asking, what would Jesus want us to do.
I believe that we do need to emulate Jesus in so many ways, but for me, obedience to his commands is Jesus' desire for those who claim to love Him (John 14:15).
Does a proper understanding of discipleship lead us to follow the actions of Jesus or the commandments of Jesus?
Thanks, Dan, for pointing out the importance of this question.
Going a little different direction on the family comments...so often families completely turn over the spiritual training of their children to local churches. And so often it seems that local churches turn over the spiritual training of children (especially in regards to "making a decision for Christ") to church camps, mission trips and retreats.
Is there a way to honor Jesus commands about family while also following biblical teaching about the training of children? Where does scripture indicate that parents are to hand over their spiritual authority to the church? Yet, how many churches sincerely attempt to work with parents as opposed to in place of them?
Dan, in this context I think I know what you are getting at as far as the "idolatry of family" but could say more?
Brent,
Can we save your important comments and questions about the role of the family and church for a soon to come discussion on how disciples are made?
You bring up excellent points, but I want to stay on the question of 'what is a disciple' here and I'm still hoping others will jump in with some proposed ideas.
What I mean by 'idolotry of family' is that for many, ones spouse or children are one's deepest love, source of meaning and satisfaction.
This is difficult because it seems like such a good thing, but I believe that the teaching of Jesus that bill quoted 'unless you hate you...' speaks directly to this.
Of course we should love these people, but God himself should be our deepest and only true dependency.
A DISCIPLE IS A PERSON LIVING IN DAILY OBEDIENCE TO THE WILL AND PURPOSE OF GOD COMMITTED TO BEARING FRUIT FOR THE KINGDOM. - Steve Dunn
I love this. It is so typically CGGC and, therefore, frames the conversation in a way that fits the manner in which CGGCers talk and think. Sadly, as hard as I might try, I can't do that.
We are all about Mission and Vision Statements which encapsulate, in 20 to 35 words, profound principles.
I very seriously thank you, Steve, for framing the conversation in a way that our bloggers and lurkers can easily understand.
It would help me, though, if you could cite five to ten highly specific lifestyle practices that the LCOG understands to be common fruit of your conviction.
IOW, what would a person do that you in the LCOG would say, "Now, THAT is living as a disciple!"
Thanks, Dan.
One thing I think about is whether our definitions of discipleship could be applied to the disciples in the gospels (The Twelve).
These guys were pretty consistently slow on the uptake. Jesus needed to rebuke, correct and teach them frequently. Yet through all of that, they were disciples. Not only after getting things a certain percent right.
That's part of the reason why I used the language, 'learning to obey all that Jesus commanded.' It took them awhile and it does and will take us awhile as well.
What each of those disciples HAD to do to become a disciple though is to leave everything behind and commit to following Jesus.
**I believe that a big part of the reason we have so many 'Christians' who are not disciples is because we don't preach repentance as part of the necessary response to the gospel. The apostles did. We mostly don't.
Instead we say that if you place your faith in Jesus as Savior, your sins are forgiven and you can go to heaven when you die. This is all true, but there are some pieces missing.
We never tell anyone considering the faith, whoever would find his life must lose it, you must pick up your cross, whoever puts themselves to the plow and looks back is unfit, repent...
My point is that someone becomes a disciple when they are willing to leave behind their own 'rights.' loves, priorities, egos, dreams and everything else and trade them in for whatever Jesus has for them.
Now slaves to the will of our master and Lord.
We are a new creation. Born again. No longer living for ourselves.
From there we learn to obey, we struggle with being obedient to all that Jesus commands, growing in faithfulness and consistency. And their must be real fruit. We will not be perfect, but we will desperately want to be. And we will weep when we disappoint the Master.
Discipleship is not a checklist.
M,
Your last post is awesome.
You make, again, the point that we don't preach repentance and you point out how the Mission suffers because we try to consider people who have not repented disciples.
You are also correct that discipleship begins in the heart. There were times when what the twelve did left much to be desired. However, when Jesus said things like, "Anyone who comes to me and does not hate his father and mother...cannot be my disciple" they always were on board.
While you make the case that discipleship isn't a checklist, Jesus did say that if a follower doesn't produce fruit s/he will be like a branch cut off from the vine, thrown in the fire and burned. He does suggest that, on that day, He will say, "I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat..." His punch line in the "Sermon" on the Mount is, "Everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand...that house fell with a great crash."
Certainly, we can't be Pharisees about lifestyle. However, to allow that one can be a disciple without bearing fruit, is out of synch with the teachihngs of Jesus. I'm sure that you are not doing that, by many CGGCers seem to, based on the fruit some of our congregations produce.
Absolutely, fruit is Required. According to Jesus, the way that we show ourselves to be disciples is to bear MUCH fruit. (John 15:8)
One of the marks of a disciple, in my thinking, is repentance. And not only initial repentance but ongoing repentance.
When true disciples are confronted by the teachings of Jesus (and the rest of Scripture) we are often cut to the heart. We repent and obey where we have gone wrong.
The first disciples were often corrected by Jesus and they responded to that correction, as must we.
True disciples have soft hearts toward the things of God. When we study and hear the Scripture shared, when we are confronted with our own sin – including ‘sins of omission’ – confess and repent and bear some real fruit of that repentance.
Interestingly (or devastatingly) a person can be a ‘disciple’ by many of our typical understandings of discipleship and not be a disciple at all.
Sadly, I’ve known of people who attend church weekly, attend or even lead a small group or other ministry and seem to read the Bible and pray, but who are bitter and unforgiving.
There are certainly many qualities and characteristics that Jesus names. We all pick up on certain ones, but Jesus said that we are to teach others, “to obey everything I have commanded,” so I don’t feel like I can pick and choose what’s important and what’s not. Everything Jesus commanded is important.
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Come on others – JUMP IN. If you don’t have a definition of a disciple, just describe from your heart what you feel is vital about being a disciple.
If we are so wishy-washy about what it means to be a disciple, how can we possibly be effective in multiplying them??? Or even being one ourselves…
I realize it's full of holes and not very spiritual and all that, but I usually tend to think of a disciple of Jesus as... someone who is maturing as a human being by following the life and teachings of Jesus.
Another way I look at discipleship is... If the story of life (at least life as understood by a Christian) is that God created this perfect world, but sin entered the world and distorted it... God has set out to make all things right again. That's his mission, that's the mission of Jesus, the Holy Spirit... the Church. Therefore that is OUR mission as followers of Jesus.
So in that sense, a disciple of Jesus is someone who says, "I want to be reconciled to God and others myself, and I also want to pitch in and do my part in helping all things in the world be put right as well."
Or something like that.
H,
Thanks for your comments.
If you feel comfortable answering: What percentage of the congregation you're connected with bears fruit of discipleship?
Gang,
I've noticed in conversations I've had on and off the blog that the notion of bringing/being an agent of 'reconciliation' is becoming a popular way of defining what a disciple does/is.
I could be very wrong about this but the use of the notion of reconiliation has a very shepherdy feel to it for me. And, I don't know what to do with that. Shepherds are the keepers of relationships in the body. Reconciliation is all about relationship. It is the role of the shepherd to lead reconciliation in the Body. Seeing disciple making in terms of relationship is a uniquely shepherd-oriented way of thinking.
Part of me is inclined to say that this is a good thing because it is fruit of the reality that shepherds are now becoming involved in the pursuit of discipleship when, in the past, they were inclined to coddle the sheep.
Alas, the part of me that has been whacked by the Shepherd Mafia can't help but suspect that the effort to define disciple making as the bringing of reconciliation is the attempt of the Shepherd Mafia to take over an area of church activity that has begun to slip away from its control. That would be a bad thing.
I don't want to believe that. But, I can't help thinking it. I've been whacked too many times.
Bill,
You asked what percentage of my congregation bears fruit of discipleship...
To be honest, I have no idea... and I'm not really sure that I care - at least in terms of a measurable segment of people 'in' my group.
One reason is because I'm troubled by any human attempt at determining whether someone is 'bearing fruit.' I know an argument can be made for it, but I am just not sure it's something that's up to us to do. We do still see through a glass dimly. What if someone is bearing fruit in ways that we cannot see?
Secondly, this has been my problem with scorecarding (MLI-talk). I have no issue with measuring things, but it's with the quantification of things. For instance, rather than scorecarding the number of marriages that got better in my church this year, I feel it is better to ask one couple in particular - whose marriage was not going so well - if THEIR marriage was any better. So it's scorecarding more on an individual basis than a group basis. Because if we are really being "missional" (whatever that means) then we shouldn't just be concerned about the marriages (as an example) of the people in our church community, but the marriages of anyone we know. It's also ridiculous to ask everyone if their marriage is better, because some people might not have been having problems in the first place.
Maybe I'm just lazy or don't want to think about it, but I personally don't like quantifying things in that way; and I couldn't even wager a guess. Sorry.
H,
Good stuff.
I do think that it is our duty to note the fruit that others produce. I disagree with you on that point.
To me, observing how well another person who says of Jesus, "Lord, lord," is bearing fruit of doing His will is something we owe each other. I believe I owe it to you and I depend on you to do it for me. To me, that's what Jesus is saying when He teaches, "If your brother sins, go and show him his fault just between the two of you..." (The words, "against you" are not in many MSS and not one of most reliable MSS.)
In my opinion, to obey the 'New Command' "...Love one another. As I have love you..." requires that we observe how well other followers are producing fruit in keeping with repentance.
I definitely share your reservations about metrics. I don't see metrics anywhere in the New Testament. What I see is estimates and round numbers that often have symbolic meaning being used to describe, not measure.
And, I think Reggie believes we should count improved marriages, not in our churches, but in our communities!
When I see what Paul says about reconciliation to the Corinthians, he sounds more like an evangelist than a shepard. "I plead with you - be reconciled to God."
Bill, I think that you ought not to associate relationship with sherpherds and shepherding so strongly or exculsively.
Relationship is the stuff of the Prophets. The Covenant has been broken. God's people have prostitiuted themselves and been unfaithful. This is language of relationship.
But cushy feel good relationship, but relationship nonetheless.
The Evanglists are about the relationship - the restoration of the right relationship between God and people.
And discipleship is about relationship. The relation of Jesus to us.
He is the master, we are the apprentices / learners.
He is the master, we are the slaves.
He is the Lord, we obey.
He calls the shots, we listen and obey.
This is a relationship.
M,
When I see reconciliation working itself out in the CGGC in the 21st century in the way you describe and not as a function of the priestly culture, I will be convinced.
If the scripture says it, it's true.
Do you see the covenant - old and new in terms other than relationship between God and God's people?
M,
If the scripture says it, it's true.
Do you see the covenant - old and new in terms other than relationship between God and God's people?
I see it in terms of relationship. But, to answer the question you asked, yes. I also see the notion of covenant in terms other than relationship between God and God's people.
My mortgage is a covenant. It is about much more than my relationship with US Bank.
It defines mutual obligation.
It defines right and wrong.
It creates a system through which justice can be pursued.
It does many things.
It's pretty shepherdy, I think, to suggest that covenant has to do with nothing but relationship.
Something that comes to mind is that our definition or idea of what a disciple is ought to come from Jesus teaching - or at least be strongly rooted in it.
We can all say "I think..." and I am certainly guilty of this. But the truth is whatever we think about what it means to be a disciple is much less important then what Jesus thinks.
M,
I agree with you to a degree. We should take careful note of what Jesus taught about discipleship.
What I think we don't do enough, though, is to note what Jesus DID in His effort to make disciples. Could it be that we can learn even more about how to turn people into disciples from how Jesus behaved in making disciples than from how He talked about it?
Sure bill, I agree very much.
The common denominator is Jesus.
Well, it's time that we begin exegeting what Jesus and others in the New Testament did, not only what they said, to discover what is true.
According to Jesus, it will be how what we believe bears fruit in the way we live that will qualify us take our inheritance prepared for us since the creation of the world. I believe that they key to doing what they did is to carefully study their action, not only their speech.
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